Feeling rather down. Okay, very down.

[xiphias]

At some point, I'll post about how adorable my nephew in Florida is, and how he ate his first birthday cake. But not right now.

For once, it doesn't feel like just plain chemical depression. It feels like it's got a cause.

A bunch of things have triggered this. Several friends pregnant with their first pregnancies. Other friends with kids. My nephew's first birthday. And the realization, which I've realized before but generally manage to squelch and push out of my mind, that Lis will never want to have children. Or sex, but mainly children. And I do.

We had something of a major fight tonight about it. Although our major fights tend to be a lot less dramatic than our minor fights. I mean, if we're fighting about one of us forgetting to load the dishwasher or something like that, well, tempers can run REALLY high, and we can yell and all of that. But when it's a fight about the fact that our fundamental life goals are really different, well, there's not much to say about that or to get all that loud about. Emotional, yes. Loud, not so much.

The fact is, what I mainly want from my life is to raise children. The fact is, Lis really doesn't want kids. And won't. The fact is, we've been ignoring this forever.

And the further fact is that neither of us is willing to leave the relationship, because we love each other, like each other, depend on each other, and are unwilling to look at any solution that involves us not being together.

I'd be willing to adopt. Lis wouldn't be -- she doesn't want to go through pregnancy, but she ALSO doesn't want kids. And she feels that she'd be even WORSE with kids who didn't share her DNA than ones who did.

This is one of the reasons why we've always intended to be poly -- we always suspected this situation. And a situation in which I had a relationship, and a child or two, with another woman, who lived in the same building as us, well, that would more or less work for her, and for me. But it seems like a situation with all sorts of emotional unstabilities, even if we KNEW someone who would be interested in such a situation with us, which, as far as we know, we don't.

But, well, the ONLY goal I've ever had for my adult life was to raise kids. If I don't do that, my life, basically, will have been a failure. I mean, we all set our own "win states" for life, and mine is raising a reasonably well-adjusted kid or two.

This is fundamentally incomprehensible to Lis. She doesn't get the concept of setting a single win state for your life, and not being able to change it, or add other ones later. Because, probably, she's better mentally adjusted than I am. But she can not comprehend what I'm talking about when I talk about my life being a failure if I can't have kids.

If anyone has advice, I'd be glad to hear it. I'm not interested in sympathy, though. Would mainly annoy me at this point.

Comments

[redbird]

I'm not sure if this is advice or a question: would being seriously involved in raising someone else's kids satisfy that win condition?

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

I've been considering it. And it's something I want to do, but, no, it wouldn't.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

When I realized I wanted kids, Ranj agreed that kids might be nice. We thought about it for the next couple of years, and it sounded like a good thing--in the future.

Then he had a stroke, and suddenly it was looking like there might not be as much future as we'd hoped. One night I said to him "You need to tell me whether or not you really want to have children with me. You can't string me along until I'm too old. If you do not want children, you need to tell me now so that I can decide if I can live with that or not."

If she has told you that she does not want kids, you need to decide whether you can really live with that or not. It sounds like not, but you might find differently if you sit down and examine your options closely. Another question is this: if you find another woman to have children with, in what ways do you see your relationship with Lis changing to accomodate your new primary focus (ie, your kids)?

[cheshyre]

I love Ian and... well, depend upon him. But if the way to his happiness is with someone else, I wouldn't want to stand in his way.

I've got a partially written blog entry of my own on why I don't feel I could be a mother, that I should probably finish up and post at some point. But if there were some way for Ian to be a father that didn't involve me being amother, I wouldn't stand in the way.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

This is one of the toughest spots a couple can be in. It's not like getting a puppy, or buying a new couch that one of you can't stand.

You certainly don't need to justify not wanting to have kids. Kids are a decision that will affect everything else you ever do for the rest of your life. Some people just don't want them. Some people start out not wanting them and change their mind. Some people have them and then realize they didn't want them. It's best to avoid being one of the latter, if at all possible.

I don't know what to tell you. I'm not trying to be harsh to you, certainly--and I hope that I wasn't. I've been in a similar spot to Ian's, and it's really difficult to want children of your own but to see your life stretching out in front of you while you're a perpetual aunt or uncle, but never mom or dad.

Mother, Father

[ailbhe]

I haven't seen any reasons you may have psoted as to why you don't want to be a mother, or can't be a mother, or would feel wrong being a mother, or whatever the proper phrasing is (very late, very tired here) but wondered whether you and he are looking as the words mother and father as meaning Male Parent and Female Parent or as encompassing job descriptions, because if the latter, I suspect he wants to be the Mother, which would leave your role as something different.

I can expand on this some other time when it's not so late and tired where I am.

A.

Re: Mother, Father

[cheshyre]

When Ian & I first started dating, we pictured our relationship fitting the 1950s nuclear household, only gender-swapped -- with him as the homemaker and me working fulltime to pay for the lifestyle.

But I think part of it is there's no guarantees. Heaven forbid he falls ill (or worse) and suddenly I'm left as sole caregiver. I know I couldn't cope with that without scarring kids for life.

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

if you find another woman to have children with, in what ways do you see your relationship with Lis changing to accommodate your new primary focus (ie, your kids)

Much more than that, seeing the way this "goal" is so central to Ian's definition of self-worth [I neither agree or disagree with this], it would only be natural to expect that Ian's primary affection would also shift to the mother is his children as well. Dealing with THIS change, IMO, is the really the toughest issue that Ian & Lis have to discuss, and this isn't something that can be "worked-out" as things happen, because then would be much too late to be even remotely objective about it.

Having no experience of polyamory, I can only say my gut feeling is that it is best for the children, that mommy and daddy be each other's primaries.

[gingicat]

Would being our default babysitter help? I do want to go back to work as soon after the baby is born as possible, and Wolf will be working as well, as will Browngirl... whether or not we paid you for this would be entirely up to you.

Re: Feeling rather down. Okay, very down.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

ow ow ow. that must be so hard.

i definitely think you might want to find a therapist with whom you can talk about this, because it's a huge hunk of an issue that needs work, and an objective outsider could be very helpful. i also think that, while having an important goal isn't a bad thing per se, having only one, and having that one be dependent on the participation of other people, and declaring one's life a failure if one might not reach it, is a very limiting and even dangerous state to be in. that too could use some reflection with the help of a professional.

but beyond that, you know, i imagine, that fighting with lis isn't going to help the situation any -- if she is anywhere as certain about her own state of mind as you are about yours, instead of fighting, you will be better off working together on finding a way for you to reach your goal with her help, if without her participation in parenthood. this'll require a lot of thought outside the box, and research (at which she rocks), and bouncing off of ideas, and networking.

and then there's the depression. i mean, even if lis wanted to also have children, or if you found another primary who wants children but is fine with lis remaining an important part of your life, it's not like that would cure the biochemical aspects of your depression.

*sigh*. i really am sorry. it sounds like a really difficult situation in which to find yourself.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

I have nothing in particular to say, advice wise. Merely that the dilemma makes me hurt for you. Both of y'all.

[mattblum.livejournal.com]

I've thought about this for a little while, and I'm not really sure what I ought to suggest. There's no resolution to this I can see that wouldn't be enormously difficult for both of you.

As I'm sure you've figured out by now, this is one of the very few issues you just can't compromise on, because there's no halfway. You shouldn't be required to have a life you'll consider a failure just because Lis feels the way she does, and she shouldn't be required to be a mother if she doesn't want to be one.

I haven't yet seen Lis's reasons for not wanting to be a mother, but if she's still convinced after hearing how important being a father is to you, I don't need to. A relative of mine was pressured by his wife to have a child before he was ready to be a father, and the result was that he wasn't a very good father (though he's improved) and the issue kind of soured his relationship with his wife since then.

I suggest starting with marriage counseling. I think you should talk with an impartial third party, who can help both of you figure out how to make whatever decision you end up making. When you're at an impasse, and you are, sometimes it helps to get another perspective on it.

If being a father is as important to you as you say, I don't see how the situation can be resolved with you and Lis together. But I strongly suggest you both talk to a marriage counselor before you make any decision one way or the other.

[sarianna.livejournal.com]

You might want to ask on childfree and see how other folks have worked out this situation. *hugs*

[(Anonymous)]

Wow. Um. Wow.

I checked out the childfree community and became sick to my stomach.

I don't have children and I have absolutely no desire to do so. But the blatant disrespect, disregard, and venom aimed at children and parents was actually gut-wretching.

Calling mothers "moos"? Calling children "snot dripping shit machines"?

You can decide, very rightly so, that having children is not for you. You can talk about it rationally. Or you can do it that way.

Pointing to that group for advice is nothing I'd personally do.

[jehanna.livejournal.com]

Everyone has already posted anything I would have thought to say. I've never known this issue to have a solution, it's one that I've always considered a deal maker or breaker in a relationship since there's not really a compromise point--you're either having kids or you're not. I think the people suggesting marriage counseling are on the right track; I would say that if you go that route don't be afraid to try several counselors if necessary to find a really good one who seems to have a clue and to understand you both. I have heard that the quality of couples counseling varies really widely, so it's worth shopping around if the first one you go to doesn't seem useful.

If you guys do find a good answer to this one, I look forward to hearing what it is. Any creative resolutions to an impasse are always of interest. *hugs* to you both.

[jenett]

Oog. Hard stuff, yeah.

One thing I'm wondering about - does age or primary responsibility issue make any difference for Lis?

I really really really really don't ever want to be pregnant, and I also know that being one of the people primarily responsible for a child under the age of about 6 would be incredibly horrible for me. (and them, and for anyone else who had to deal with me: I do very badly with sleep deprivation, and I do very badly with unreliable demands.)

But I do feel sort of differently about kids I can either give back at night, or past the age of about 6. (Old enough to be able to amuse themselves safely in some settings, be able to say what they need, etc.) And I'm looking forward to borrowing my neices for a while as they get older.

And in that setting I could see kids in a poly setting working really well, where you could potentially work out levels of interaction that worked for both of you.

(In my case, we're lucky: my husband feels the same basic way.)

I'm also reminded of someone I know. He, at the time, had been living in a mostly-commune, where there were something like 5 kids around, for a number of years. At one point in there, all of the kids' actual parents were in rehab or dealing with other stuff that meant they weren't there. He and his partner ended up doing primary parenting for a year or two, along with being around a lot the rest of the time.

He (his partner died a while back) is still considered a parent by all the kids (now grownups). (To the point that it was really important to him and to them that they approve of his newish partner, who's a good friend and the reason I know him.)

It reminds me that just like poly stuff reminds me there are lots of ways to make relationships work, maybe there's lots of ways to make parenting and interacting with the next generation work. If we can just figure out the practical details.

[ewtikins.livejournal.com]

I mean, we all set our own "win states" for life, and mine is raising a reasonably well-adjusted kid or two.

She doesn't get the concept of setting a single win state for your life, and not being able to change it, or add other ones later. Because, probably, she's better mentally adjusted than I am.

So once you have these kids, if you find a way, how are you going to decide what is 'reasonably well-adjusted'? How are you going to feel if your expectations regarding being well-adjusted aren't met? How is a kid going to feel if they know that the only thing that will make you happy is raising them successfully and that YOUR definition of success is not flexible?

Some of what other people have said here is good advice, but if your win-state is so very inflexible it probably bears thinking about how you can make that more flexible anyway, for your own sake and that of any children you might have.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

I was once going through a moan about how much my life sucked and I hadn't done anything with it and I was a failure, and a friend was trying to reassure me as to the value of it, and one of the things she mentioned as a major achievement of mine was zorinth, which made me really angry. He's his own person, his own achievement, however much he may be my child and represent a lot of hard work and time raising him.

However, I think "wanting to have kids and raise them well" is quite different from "this kid is my achievement" and I can't imagine xiphias ever resting that weight on a kid -- that wouldn't be raising them to be well-adjusted.

[cellio]

I second (third?) the suggestion to speak with a marriage counselor, because this issue is pretty fundamental to a marriage.

Would taking on foster kids, particularly ones old enough to be out of the "requires attenion 24x7" stage, be at all useful? The upside is that you have the opportunity to make a real difference in the life of a kid who really needs it; the downside is that you may have no idea how long you'll have the kid when you begin.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

For me, yes, for Lis, no.

Aim for poly, but take the scenic route

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

It doesn't seem intuitively likely to me that either of you will change your feelings on this. I also think, from what I know of you both, that you're both right not to consider leaving your relationship. That means it seems to me that pursuing a more active poly setup is the most likely workable outcome. Yes, that's uncertain, but it seems to be the only option that offers you any chance at all of achieving both your desired outcomes, so surely it has to be worth trying.

As for Lis not being able to understand where you're coming from, I'd recommend that you both just agree to put it aside and accept it as a given for the moment that you feel the way you do and have a right (and possibly even an ethical duty) to set your goals accordingly. djm4 and I have a certain amount of experience in dealing with this kind of fundamental difference, and we find there comes a point where further rounds of explanation are actually harmful.

You probably have many years ahead of you before becoming a biological father ceases to be a realistic option, so my next piece of advice would be to try not to rush this (I realise you haven't so far - I just mean that I don't think it needs to become urgent now, either.) It seems to me that good uses of your time now would be to find some way of stabilising your depression, address any health or financial issues or anything else that someone considering having kids would normally do, and consider what, apart from this issue, might benefit from work in your relationship with Lis. (One question to ask that might be fruitful is whether there's any more you can do to support her in reaching her own goals, or any other question that makes sure the focus is on her priorities as well as yours a good part of the time.) The stronger the two of you are mentally, physically and in your relationship, the more likely it is that you will weather a transition to poly successfully, and anyone with enough maturity to be a suitable mother for your children in this kind of setup will want to see that those things are in place anyway.

Later, you could consider spending some time together thinking about what sort of ground rules might (a) help you both feel secure in a poly relationship, and at the same time (b) also help to reassure a prospective partner that she can feel secure too. Get some people you trust outside the relationship to sanity-check what you come up with, especially from the point of view of the prospective new partner. Be prepared to have to revise them when you meet that person for real, but at least you will have a starting point for the discussions.

I'm guessing that you would want any additional partner to be Jewish if you were going to share living space and have kids together; if so, you might find the AhavaRaba mailing list helpful, if you're not there already. I'm not on it currently, but can probably dig out the details for you if you would like me to.

I'd put "look for a new partner" right at the end of your list, because before you get there, you'll need to make some difficult decisions about whether and how to look at all. As has been said many times on alt.poly, usually the best way to look is not to look, but that may not be an option, given how specific your requirements would be. You'd have to consider where to strike the balance between emotional and pragmatic issues, whether you're prepared to use personal ads, etc.

children

[(Anonymous)]

I will chime in and suggest you both discuss this with an impartial counselor. I also suggest you both take time to intensely take care of children of different ages for a period of time. Work as a live in child care person or in some other capacity with children. You both may find the reality of the situation different from what you think and you both may then wish to re-evaluate you positions.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

even if we KNEW someone who would be interested in such a situation with us, which, as far as we know, we don't.

Then my advice -- maybe not today, but soon -- is to go looking for them. I know a woman in more or less the converse of your situation -- I wouldn't necessarily suggest her personally, since the grography doesn't work, but it does demonstrate that a poly woman who wants kids and whose primary does not is a findable thing. There are probably even enough of them that you can be choosy. And then do some relationship work, the three of you, before bringing an actual child into the picture.

I would also ask yourself a few follow up questions -- like, do you need to be in a romantic relationship with the mother of your children? If not, your pool broadens to include single women who want kids and don't want to wait, whether they're poly or not.

Do you mind if the kid has more than two parents? If not, what about a lesbian couple?