Less spoiler-rific AVENGERS comment, about Joss Whedon's Problem

[xiphias]

Yeah. The movie doesn't pass the Bechdel Test. At all.

See, this is the disappointing thing about Joss Whedon. He so totally wants to be a feminist. But he just . . . misses. And I feel so bad for him. I'm always rooting for him to get it right, because he WANTS to get it right, and WE want him to get it right and he just doesn't.

He's got multiple female characters with agency. It would be so easy to actually put some of them in the same room at the same time and talk about things, other than men, that move the plot forward. But he doesn't. Even though he writes female characters with agency, they're usually interacting with men, reacting to men. His worlds are patriarchal, even though it's not his intention, or his desire, and he WANTS to do better.

Please, Joss. Get it right. You want to. We want you to. It just hurts that you don't. We're pulling for you, Joss! Please.

Comments

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

Yeah. :-/ I think this just points up how ingrained the patriarchal/male-oriented culture is.

Also, starting from Marvel comics doesn't really make it any easier. (This from a die-hard Marvel fan.)

[linenoise.livejournal.com]

That was kinda my first thought, that trying to get from "Marvel Comics" to "passes the Bechdel Test" is a *huge* leap. Not an impossible one, and he probably should've made more of an effort, but.

Some of the blame probably also goes to the Hollywood money that funded the thing, because "It's a comics movie! If it's not blatantly patriarchal, we might scare off our core demographic!" Only without the self-awareness required to frame the statement in that language.

[sethg]

Whedon’s work, for all its many virtues, has a big dollop of Nice Guy™ wish-fulfillment fantasy, which I, as a recovering Nice Guy™, can’t help noticing. Example: In Firefly/Serenity, the prostitutes’ guild that Inara belongs seems to have near-monopoly power over the trade, and that power is exercised for the benefit of the prostitutes rather than their clients (in one episode it’s made clear that mistraeating a prostitute can get someone blackballed by the guild), in a system whose government doesn’t demonstrate a great deal of concern for the welfare of workers in any other kind of job. It’s Certified Organic Fair Trade Prostitution!

[alandd.livejournal.com]

Or maybe the story he was telling didn't call for it & he didn't want to write it in "just to pass the test" - which is worse than failing the test.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

*sigh*

Really?

Really, THAT'S where you're going with this? Seriously?

You honestly are saying that?

[alandd.livejournal.com]

Uh... maybe. I don't know - It would shock me to think that Whedon would NOT be familiar with the Bechtel Test, so in my everlasting attempt to figure out why people do things that don't necessarily make any sense, that's what I came up with.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Okay, fine. I'll explain.

All movies should pass the Bechdel Test unless there's a specific reason for them not to. For instance, if a movie is about an all-male culture -- a movie set in a monastery, among the gay male subculture of the Seventies, about a prison -- then there is a reason for the movie not to pass.

However, absent a SPECIFIC reason for them NOT to pass, they SHOULD.

If the movie doesn't pass, it's a sign of a structural failing in the movie. It's a sign that it was written wrong. You look at it, and you notice that it doesn't pass, and you rewrite.

The Bechdel test is a first-pass approximation of the question, "Do women in this story have individual agency?" If they don't, then the story had better be one ABOUT women not having individual agency, such as one in which they are absent because of an all-male culture. Otherwise, you've screwed up.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Well said, and much more calmly than I was about to.

I get so sick of the constant reinforcement and defense of the idea that it isn't necessary to see women as full human beings, that that's some kind of extra or garnish or fillip to be worked in if the author has time and/or as the plot may allow. Feh.

[ookpik.livejournal.com]

*applause* (and for Xiphias too)

[sethg]

I’ve lost track of the link, but I saw an essay explaining that from the POV of Hollywood executives, big-budget feature films SHOULD NOT pass the Bechdel test (presumably they don’t call it that); there is a widespread belief that women will see “men’s movies” but not vice versa, and therefore any suggestion that female characters are more than accessories to the men contaminates the film with revenue-inhibiting cooties.

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

You know, I noticed that when I watched Avengers today -- there were several female characters, but I couldn't recall any of them speaking to each other.

But Firefly and Buffy pass the Bechdel with flying colors.

[burgundy.livejournal.com]

Does Firefly really pass? Zoe tends to talk to Mal and Wash, and Jayne to a lesser extent. She doesn't talk much to the other women. Kaylee and River get pretty friendly by the end of the series, but the first conversation that comes to mind, at the end of Objects in Space, they're talking about a boy she had sex with. Kaylee and Inara talk, but about their respective sex lives (or lack thereof). Inara doesn't interact much with Zoe or River.

You might be able to pick through the series and find a conversation here or there, but that's hardly "flying colors."

[maggiebloome.livejournal.com]

There was totally a great opportunity to work Ms Marvel in, too. Pilots flying around, aliens flying around... you don't even need Mar Vell, you can just have Carol Danvers.

[(Anonymous)]

I haven't seen it, but out of curiosity, would it have succeeded if they had used the female Loki from not too long ago?

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Hell, yes. One of the best scenes is an interrogation between Loki and Black Widow about Loki's plans. Or maybe about why Black Widow can never be forgiven for her past sins. They DO discuss other characters, such as Hawkeye, during it, but it's not about Hawkeye.

Of course, in that case, you'd lose Hiddleston as Loki, which I'd not be willing to do, since Hiddleston is the reason I saw the movie.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Although, come to think of it, the dynamic of that scene would be completely different with two female characters, since Black Widow is manipulating Loki using his patriarchal expectation of her feminine emotional weakness.