xiphias: (Default)
[personal profile] xiphias
I think it would be very interesting to have a polling firm do the following poll, throughout the United States. Two questions, but the second one would be a bit long:

1. With the caveat that you might be able to see exceptions in some cases, do you, on the whole, come closer to supporting or opposing the display of the Ten Commandments in public, not-overtly-religious buildings such as courthouses, town halls, or schools, and the like?

2. Please name as many of the Ten Commandments as you can.

Question 2 would be scored from 0 to, oh, about 14 or so, with half-points given for partial credit. The reason for going over 10 would be for people who could name multiple versions of commandments, including the "keep" and "remember" distinction in the commandment of the Sabbath, and between the Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish versions. Actually, perhaps one would want to score from -1 to 14, to cover people who list things that aren't in the Ten Commandments, such as "Love thy neighbor".

I hypothesize that there would be no correlation between the "support" or "oppose" answer, and how many they could name. And that the average number would be somewhere around 2.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-09-08 03:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theletterelle.livejournal.com
What's the distinction between keep and remember? I mean, besides the fact that they're two different words?

This is like #1 commandment in the Adventist church, so I have the KJ version memorized. :) I noticed at one Protestant church (can't remember which) they had a poster of the 10 commandments up, which had eliminated the fourth, and divided the tenth into two. I find that reprehensible.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-09-08 11:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
To "keep" it (שמר, "shamar", literally, "to guard") means to follow the laws of Shabbat. Someone who follows the laws of Shabbat is called "shomer Shabbat". The basic meaning of שמר is guarding something -- the same root is used for a bodyguard, a security guard, a military guard, a prison guard. So, it really means, "to guard the Sabbath", and it refers to actions that you do and do not do.

To "remember" it (זחר, I think, although I could have spelled that wrong, "zachar", "to remember") is to bring forth in one's mind the reasons for Shabbat, and to understand it. It is mental and spiritual.

So, by having the two commandments, we are commanded both to obey the laws with our body, by taking and refraining from actions, and to understand and feel the laws with our mind and soul, by thinking and feeling.

spelling

Date: 2006-09-10 09:19 pm (UTC)
cellio: (shira)
From: [personal profile] cellio
Since you semi-asked... zachar is with a chaf, not a chet. I keep track of this by uzing "yizkor" as a memory aid.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-09-08 11:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
Also, what you saw was a variation of the Catholic listing. And why not divide them that way? It's not like there's anything particularly special about the number ten, and it's certainly not like there's any real clue where to split them up, or even if one OUGHT to split them up.

At one point, I counted about thirty commandments in the Ten Commandments. So everybody groups them into smaller chunks. Does it matter how they're grouped?

Then God spoke all these words: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it. Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.


Remember also that all the punctuation is speculative, so sentence breaks can be reasonably put in somewhat different places. Further, in most situations, the verb "to be" is implied rather than explicit, so something like "Ani Adoshem" can either mean "I AM G-d", or "I, G-d. . . " -- that is, it can be a separate standalone concept, or simply an introduction to another concept.

It's an interesting exercise: what is the largest number of discrete commandments you can make out of those phrases? Personally, I could count "I am Adoshem" and "No gods before me" as two separate commandments. . .

(no subject)

Date: 2006-09-09 12:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theletterelle.livejournal.com
Did you miss the part where they eliminated the fourth? I don't care how many commandments you split them into, deleting one and covering it up by splitting one into two isn't cool.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-09-09 12:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
Are you sure they didn't fold the second commandment into the first? That's what the Catholics do, and they also split what you and I count as the tenth into the ninth and tenth.

My point is that you can't argue that one was deleted and another was split up -- because any way that you argue that, the same argument can be made about yours.

See, they could argue that you deleted one and split up the fourth and fifth to cover it.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-09-09 12:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
Incedentally, when you say "fourth", do you mean Shabbat or parents?

(no subject)

Date: 2006-09-09 01:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] theletterelle.livejournal.com
Shabbat, dude.

1. No other gods before Me.

2. No graven images.

3. No taking God's name in vain.

4. Shabbat/Sabbath.

5. Honor your parents.

6. Don't kill.

7. Don't commit adultery.

8. Don't steal.

9. Don't bear false witness.

10. Don't covet anyone else's wife or any of his stuff.

Those are the ones I learned. Where am I losing one?

The poster I saw had no Sabbath, but had no coveting wife/no coveting stuff as two separate ones.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-09-09 02:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
You're not; those are the ones which I know. The Catholics, by contrast, combine 1 and 2 and split 10 the way you saw.

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