You know what would be an interesting experiment to do in the United States?

[xiphias]

I think it would be very interesting to have a polling firm do the following poll, throughout the United States. Two questions, but the second one would be a bit long:

1. With the caveat that you might be able to see exceptions in some cases, do you, on the whole, come closer to supporting or opposing the display of the Ten Commandments in public, not-overtly-religious buildings such as courthouses, town halls, or schools, and the like?

2. Please name as many of the Ten Commandments as you can.

Question 2 would be scored from 0 to, oh, about 14 or so, with half-points given for partial credit. The reason for going over 10 would be for people who could name multiple versions of commandments, including the "keep" and "remember" distinction in the commandment of the Sabbath, and between the Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish versions. Actually, perhaps one would want to score from -1 to 14, to cover people who list things that aren't in the Ten Commandments, such as "Love thy neighbor".

I hypothesize that there would be no correlation between the "support" or "oppose" answer, and how many they could name. And that the average number would be somewhere around 2.

Comments

[ckd]

Well, the Cambridge Public Library building (currently closed for renovation, so I can't go check the exact details) has an inscription that lists "Love thy neighbor" as the 11th. Blame Fred Rindge.

(By "average" do you mean mean, or median?)

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Median. The mean would probably be between two and three.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

By the way, for me I'm opposed to the display of the Ten Commandments, but I count the CPL as an "exception", which is why I phrased it that way.

[dancing-kiralee.livejournal.com]

What makes that "exception" acceptable?

Kiralee

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Have you seen it?

First: a private citizen donated the building to Cambridge with the stipulation that the thing be displayed.

Second: there is a display by it, explaining its history, the guy who donated it, and that the library doesn't, in general, endorse the Ten Commandments as superior to any other moral or ethical system, but that it is there because a) that's the rules, and b) it's historically interesting.

[dancing-kiralee.livejournal.com]

Yes, I've seen it... and I have pretty much the same opinion as you do about the Ten Commandments, and the CPL as an exception.

I wanted to know what your reason were.

I would use a different reason... I'd say it isn't offensive because the motive of the display is to provide information (appropriate for a library), not to endorse a religion... and they make that very clear.

Kiralee

[redbird]

Quite. Two is in part a test of verbal memory. I could probably give you most if not all from memory, and I'm thoroughly opposed to displaying the Ten Commandments, the Eightfold Path, or any other religious text on government buildings.

Actually, I'd like to add another pair of questions, or maybe include them in a separate poll: "Do you attend religious services regularly? [If yes] Does the building the services are held in have the Ten Commandments on display?"

[dancing-kiralee.livejournal.com]

What about things like the quote on the front of Cambridge City Hall about (among other things) the connection between the commandments given to men by god, and the process of government...

... in some ways I find that even more of a problem, although it's not specifically a religious text.

Kiralee

[psu-jedi.livejournal.com]

I think your hypothesis would prove to be correct.

I say, if they wanna post the commandmants, they should post all 613! ;-) (Remember...God hates shrimp! ;-)

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Which list, Maimonedes, the Targum, the Shulchan Aruch. . . ? They're all slightly different. . .

[psu-jedi.livejournal.com]

Doesn't matter to me...just trying to point out that the "10" that are always talked about are specifically Christian, so this whole "Christian/Judaic values" thing needs to cease. (Before I converted, I honestly thought that Christian and Judaic values WERE the same, because that's what I was taught. Now I know better.)

[ron_newman]

I wouldn't say the concept of "Ten Commandments" is Christian, especially since many shuls (including mine) have images like this one displayed in them.

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

10? Let's see.... Doc, Happy, Grumpy, Sneezy, Sleepy, Bashful and Dopey...what are the other 3?

[gilmoure.livejournal.com]

Sleezy, Snotty, and Wolverine

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Comet, Blitzen, and Rudolph.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think most people could probably name three -- do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Aparently, most people forget the "adultery" one.

[theletterelle.livejournal.com]

What's the distinction between keep and remember? I mean, besides the fact that they're two different words?

This is like #1 commandment in the Adventist church, so I have the KJ version memorized. :) I noticed at one Protestant church (can't remember which) they had a poster of the 10 commandments up, which had eliminated the fourth, and divided the tenth into two. I find that reprehensible.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

To "keep" it (שמר, "shamar", literally, "to guard") means to follow the laws of Shabbat. Someone who follows the laws of Shabbat is called "shomer Shabbat". The basic meaning of שמר is guarding something -- the same root is used for a bodyguard, a security guard, a military guard, a prison guard. So, it really means, "to guard the Sabbath", and it refers to actions that you do and do not do.

To "remember" it (זחר, I think, although I could have spelled that wrong, "zachar", "to remember") is to bring forth in one's mind the reasons for Shabbat, and to understand it. It is mental and spiritual.

So, by having the two commandments, we are commanded both to obey the laws with our body, by taking and refraining from actions, and to understand and feel the laws with our mind and soul, by thinking and feeling.

spelling

[cellio]

Since you semi-asked... zachar is with a chaf, not a chet. I keep track of this by uzing "yizkor" as a memory aid.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Also, what you saw was a variation of the Catholic listing. And why not divide them that way? It's not like there's anything particularly special about the number ten, and it's certainly not like there's any real clue where to split them up, or even if one OUGHT to split them up.

At one point, I counted about thirty commandments in the Ten Commandments. So everybody groups them into smaller chunks. Does it matter how they're grouped?

Then God spoke all these words: I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it. Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Remember also that all the punctuation is speculative, so sentence breaks can be reasonably put in somewhat different places. Further, in most situations, the verb "to be" is implied rather than explicit, so something like "Ani Adoshem" can either mean "I AM G-d", or "I, G-d. . . " -- that is, it can be a separate standalone concept, or simply an introduction to another concept.

It's an interesting exercise: what is the largest number of discrete commandments you can make out of those phrases? Personally, I could count "I am Adoshem" and "No gods before me" as two separate commandments. . .

[theletterelle.livejournal.com]

Did you miss the part where they eliminated the fourth? I don't care how many commandments you split them into, deleting one and covering it up by splitting one into two isn't cool.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Are you sure they didn't fold the second commandment into the first? That's what the Catholics do, and they also split what you and I count as the tenth into the ninth and tenth.

My point is that you can't argue that one was deleted and another was split up -- because any way that you argue that, the same argument can be made about yours.

See, they could argue that you deleted one and split up the fourth and fifth to cover it.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Incedentally, when you say "fourth", do you mean Shabbat or parents?

[theletterelle.livejournal.com]

Shabbat, dude.

1. No other gods before Me.

2. No graven images.

3. No taking God's name in vain.

4. Shabbat/Sabbath.

5. Honor your parents.

6. Don't kill.

7. Don't commit adultery.

8. Don't steal.

9. Don't bear false witness.

10. Don't covet anyone else's wife or any of his stuff.

Those are the ones I learned. Where am I losing one?

The poster I saw had no Sabbath, but had no coveting wife/no coveting stuff as two separate ones.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

You're not; those are the ones which I know. The Catholics, by contrast, combine 1 and 2 and split 10 the way you saw.

[noveldevice.livejournal.com]

I used to know them all. (Had to memorize them as a child, under pain of pain. Ditto a number of OT verses, the which I have mostly managed to forget.) I could probably still name...9. (Wrote down what I could remember, then checked Google: 9 commandments, and nothing that wasn't a commandment.)

I missed taking the name of the lord in vain. Goddammit. :)

But I have often observed that I know quite a bit more about the Christian Bible than the sort of evangelical asswipe who usually wants to argue with me. It helps when you've actually read it.

[redbird]

I'd also note that I periodically want to grab certain sorts of "Christian" and point out to them that they are commanded not to bear false witness.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Well, that really only applies to courtroom situations.

[redbird]

I'd say it arguably applies to any sort of lie about a person that's intended to harm that person (e.g., telling someone "your spouse is having an affair" when the teller has no reason to believe that but has an old grudge, or falsely accusing a co-worker of theft). It might even cover some lies that aren't intended as harmful, when the liar could/should have known it was likely to (some baseless customer complaints whose intention is to get a free meal or other compensation from the company, and that could cost the person complained about a promotion or even their job).

It probably doesn't apply to the odd person who was going on at some length to me about having seen cattitude with another woman, because I suspect he thought it was a joke, rather than trying to cause trouble between us.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

No; the term is a specifically legal one. It refers only to perjury in a courtroom situation. It doesn't cover general lying, or even general talebearing. THAT is covered by the commandment "Thou shall not go about as a talebearer among the people," which is a different one.

[zarq.livejournal.com]

I can see an argument being made that the ten commandments are so important to remember that they need to be displayed -- and that the average person's inability to remember 'em simply proves that point.

I'll never understand the impulse to force one's faith upon other people.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Sure, and when Stephen Colbert asked a congressman who co-sponsered a relevant bill to name as many commandements as he could -- he got two -- Lis and I thought that he could have gotten out of the situation with honor by using that argument. However, he apparently didn't think of it.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

Oppose, and I can certainly do the ten in Catholic version, as well as riff on some of the other forms (though not do them entirely).

I have at least once in my copyediting career had to tell an author that there is more than one version.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Whether I support or oppose the display depends on whether equivalent statements from other faiths are also displayed. Not necessarily all other faiths, as few buildings are large enough, but a representative sample, at least. (Don't ask me what constitutes a representative sample. I haven't had my coffee yet.)

How many can I name? Well, in no order...

Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.
Thou shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
Thou shall have no other gods before Me.

I can't remember if adultery is seperate from "covet thy neighbor's wife" and if graven images and "name of the Lord in vain" are part of "no other gods", seperate commandments, or elsewhere in the Bible.

If one really wanted to list basic Christian laws, it would be "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind" and "Love thy neighbor as yourself".

[cellio]

It would be an interesting survey. It should definitely count off for wrong answers -- in fact, I would score #2 with two numbers, #correct and #wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

y'know this entire intellectual exercise could be resolved quite easily. It does raise a valid question regarding the correlation of belief vs action. Simple way to solve --

Part One: take a clipboard or three, one or two friends, stand in Harvard Yard (or some busy streetcorner by a University) and conduct your own survey. Make sure that you ask the requisite demographic questions for cross-tabulation (age, sex, religious preference, political party, annual income). Three to four hours should be sufficient for a good sample. Then take the same clipboard and hi y'selves to a different part of town frequented by a different group of people (Southie?) and repeat the process. For improved accuracy repeat the process one more time.

Part Two: Calculate the results and cross reference results by age / religious preferences / income. Some fundamental statistics should yield publishable results.

Part Three: Call your local news media and announce your results

Part Four: Wait for the deluge of interviews, emails, phone calls, etc.

dod

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but that would only give us the data for three locations in or around Boston. We'd get a better sample if you did this where you live, as well. . .

Of course, the idea of you having a four-hour block of time that isn't already scheduled up the wazoo these days is kind of laughable.

[rebmommy.livejournal.com]

Some fundamental statistics should yield publishable results.

har-har-har... I read the above statement as "should yield punishable results." I amuse myself.