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xiphiasLike, I assume, ALL of you who are Americans, I find it downright HUMILIATING that a LOT of my countrymen are Biblical literalists. Do any of you have to deal with Creationists and Christian Biblical literalists in your lives?
That's Saint Augustine back in the fifth century.
Biblical literalism and creationism was considered primitive and stupid BEFORE the Middle Ages. Not only have Biblical literalists failed to come up to the 21st Century, they've failed to come up to the FIFTH Century. They're espousing ideas that were discredited in Christianity before the fall of Rome.
That's just plain embarrassing. Less embarrassing for me, I guess, since I'm Jewish, but still.
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]
That's Saint Augustine back in the fifth century.
Biblical literalism and creationism was considered primitive and stupid BEFORE the Middle Ages. Not only have Biblical literalists failed to come up to the 21st Century, they've failed to come up to the FIFTH Century. They're espousing ideas that were discredited in Christianity before the fall of Rome.
That's just plain embarrassing. Less embarrassing for me, I guess, since I'm Jewish, but still.
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(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 05:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 05:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 05:54 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 05:15 pm (UTC)This came up when I was having physical therapy last fall; my PT, who told me about this, seemed to think it was unfortunate that some of her friends and relatives were creationists and were keeping their children away from science, but not enough so that she would do anything about it. Like, say, taking her own young son to see the dinosaurs, because he might talk about them to his cousins.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 05:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 10:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 11:29 pm (UTC)[1] Life is that weird, there probably is at least one.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 11:33 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 08:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-11 06:54 am (UTC)I love that bit of Augustine and have quoted it before (and am happy to see it here, so next time I need it, it might be easier to find. I'd love to have a bit of Rambam to quote alongside it.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-11 12:53 pm (UTC)“The members of this group are poor in knowledge. One can only regret their folly. Their very effort to honor and to exalt the sage sin accordance with their own meager understanding actually humiliates them. As God lives, this group destroys the glory of the Torah of God say the opposite of what it intended. For He said in His perfect Torah, ‘The nation is a wise and understanding people’ (Deut. 4:6). But this group expounds the laws and the teachings of our sages in such a way that when the other peoples hear them they say that this little people is foolish and ignoble.”
(copy-pasted from this translation)
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-11 01:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-11 01:19 pm (UTC)The only reason this is relevant is to note that the REASON I find atheist/theist arguments boring is that we Jews have been having them for our entire recorded history, and the arguments haven't changed in over eight hundred years. Far as I'm concerned, it's fine to come down on either side of the question; I really don't care much. It's hard to maintain any enthusiasm about the argument itself after eight centuries.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-11 08:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-11 02:27 pm (UTC)Third time's the charm, or, The sage sin
Date: 2012-09-13 04:59 am (UTC)1. (see userpic)
2. Uhhh...
3. Ah ha! "... to honor and to exalt the sages in accordance with..."
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-13 05:47 am (UTC)...
I think I've got it now. That translation is headed "Maimonides Introduction to Perek Helek". Google search hits for
perek helek site:mhcny.org
include "Maimonides Heritage Center Web Education Series", with the snippet
Source: Introduction to Perek Helek, Chapter Ten of Mishna Sanhedrin. Translated by Issadore Twersky, The Maimonides Reader.
And on a search for
Issadore Twersky, The Maimonides Reader
Google decides we probably meant "Isadore" and has a lot of hits, including Amazon's page for this translation.
So now I know.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 05:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 05:18 pm (UTC)That shouldn't make a bit of difference.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 05:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 08:10 pm (UTC)I've gotten REALLY good at shutting up on certain subjects at family gatherings. :-/
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 08:12 pm (UTC)One of the big ideas that the Protestant Reformation introduced was that a lay person can read (a translation of) the Bible and figure out for himself (or herself?) what it meant, instead of relying on authoritative interpretations handed down from the clergy.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 09:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 11:09 pm (UTC)I don't get offended, but I definitely wince and sometimes sigh when people characterize all "Christians" with the most egregious flaws of (some) American Evangelical Protestants. Their bizarre issues may feature prominently in certain contemporary debates, but as far as historical, worldwide Christianity goes, this is a freaky splinter group in decline.
Anyone who thinks Christians hate science needs to meet some Jesuits.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 11:32 pm (UTC)I like
The interviewer nodded, marked down something, and went on to the next topic.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 11:57 pm (UTC)I have. They're awesome. But they don't mean that my parents, and their churches, and Evangelical Christianity in general, and everyone who listens to "Family Radio", all don't exist.
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Date: 2012-09-10 11:58 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-11 12:01 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-11 02:19 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2012-09-11 08:17 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2012-09-11 10:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-23 06:05 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-11 12:47 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-11 04:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-09-10 11:58 pm (UTC)