The more I learn about the human body and mind, the less I believe in the Singularity.

[xiphias]

In a recent episode of RadioLab about Guts, they reported on a recent finding that massive doses of lactobacillus can lead to a calming effect during stress. At least, in mice. But some initial studies suggest that it might hold true for humans, too.

We've got, what, three pounds of non-us bacteria living within us? And we know that they have various symbiotic relationships with us, helping us digest food, and stuff like that -- but this suggests that gut bacteria can have effects on our personality. I mean, sure, the toxoplasmosis parasite can have effects on our personality, but that lives in the brain. Now we find out that things that live in our gut might, too?

It's becoming clearer and clearer that the very notion of "me" is not as clear as one might think it is. A person is a committee of not only our own glands and endocrine system, but apparently some of the critters that are just along for the ride get a vote, too.

So, let's say you upload your mind to a computer.

Then what?

Without your own personal mix of neurotransmitters and glandular stuff, it's not going to act like you. And, apparently, if you don't get the extra flora and fauna living within you right, too, it's ALSO not going to be you.

The more I learn about people, the less I know. The more I find out, the more complicated we seem. I just can't imagine that simply duplicating someone's brain would actually make a copy of the person, any more.

Comments

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

I think you can have a Singularity without uploading. For example, what if a method of drastically increasing intelligence for existing humans get developed?

However, I've done enough tai chi and such to know that bodies are interesting in non-obvious ways, and I wouldn't trust anyone without a similar background to even try to get uploading right, and I believed this before I'd heard the interesting news about how involved we are with our microflora.

[minerva42]

Thanks for this thought!

[kerrypolka.livejournal.com]

As I understand it, people today who are studying neurology on the autism spectrum (including ADHD, Asperger's, etc) have found there is a relationship with gut issues, such as IBS, coeliac disease, or other allergies or intolerances. It seems there is a really strong link, even if it isn't totally clear what the relationship is, between gut and brain.

[goljerp]

Well, I am not an MD, but I recall reading that there is a cluster of neurons in the gut -- and that is one reason why drugs which mess with seritonin levels (which in the brain can have an impact on depression) can have side effects on, um, gut i/o processes.

[kiya]

Well, the other thing is that there's a fuckton of serotonin involved in digestion. It's in the top two stashes in the body. When my brother was on drugs for his major GI condition they were basically Prozac-for-intestines.

[nancylebov.livejournal.com]

The book exists. I've read about half of it.

It's pretty interesting, even if I haven't read the other half. One of the major premises is that a lot of gut problems aren't problems with the organs. Instead, the neurological signals needed to run a digestive system have gone out of whack.

[navrins]

Do you happen to have any references for this? I'm interested enough that if you don't, I'll likely go looking for some myself (unless I forget, which to be honest is likely).

[goljerp]

I don't know about you, but my mind doesn't like thinking about my brain.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

See, to me that just means the upload simulation has to be a lot more complex--to include not just the head-neurons, but the whole system, gut and all.

It's an argument for 'rich' upload worlds, where uploaded people live in a simulation of meatspace, rather than in some esoteric abstraction of existence.

We also get into the "what's a human" philosophical debate. Is an amputee a human? Yes, surely. A quadriplegic? Yes. A 'locked-in' person? Sure. What about someone with no sensory apparatus? Still human? Helen Keller was considered human, even while missing two of the most important senses--what about missing all of them?

How much can we take away and still call it 'human'? Now, what about someone with no digestive tract, kept alive somehow? Well, we don't know, since we can't keep someone alive in this condition--but instinctively, yes. And how would their mind be different? Dunno...

[burgundy.livejournal.com]

While we can't keep someone alive with no digestive tract whatsoever, there are plenty of people who've had bowel resections, which can involve removing the whole of the small intestine or large intestine. I should look to see if there have been any studies done on the impact of removing such a big part of the microbiome. And if you have an ileostomy, what effect does the fact that no food whatsoever is passing through your intestines have on your gut flora? Sometime when it's not one in the morning, I should check on this.

[geekosaur]

They're finding a lot of unexpected relationships between our gut fauna and our entire bodies.

Interestingly, I dreamed about this idea last night; kinda went a bit like the start of Niven's "Rammer", except that (a) the legal entity that had resuscitated me didn't seem to be much like the State and (b) we all got bogged down with the question of whether the "me" that was restored to a different body than my own was the same me because so much depends on specific body chemistry and not just neural patterns. Gut fauna were in there as a possible issue, probably because of an article in ScienceDaily that I'd read shortly before bed, but it was secondary to the question of my dopamine issues.