By the way, I DO divide the world into "good guys" and "bad guys".

[xiphias]

Just so you know: if you're against the building of an Islamic community center in Downtown Manhattan, you're one of the bad guys.

If you are saying, "well, sure, they have the LEGAL right to do it, but by putting it there, they're just being provocative," then you may not be particularly evil yourself, but you're intimidated by the evil people into being one of their henchmen. People doing completely normal things like building community centers aren't being provocative. The people who you are afraid they will provoke? Those are the bad guys. And if you are saying that they should modify their behaviors to do what the bad guys want, then you are saying that you support the bad guys.

And that means that you're one of the bad guys.

And THAT means that I find you a danger to me, personally. I'm Jewish. Right now, Jews are mostly considered more or less white. But that could change. And the second it does, people will start saying things like, "Well, sure, they COULD build a synagogue there, but wouldn't that just be asking for trouble?"

Everything that people are saying about the downtown Manhattan community center, I just automatically hear people saying that about something that I might want to do someday. If you're against them, then you're against me, and you're also against justice, freedom, and every ideal that this country stands for.

Just so we're clear on that.

Comments

[fauxklore]

How far away is far enough? There are actually currently two mosques that are closer to Ground Zero than this one.

As a Jew and the daughter of a Shoah survivor, I am well aware that my mere existence offends certain people. I refuse to hide as a result and I refuse to force anybody else to hide.

[ron_newman]

I didn't know that, actually -- can you tell us more about those other two mosques

[fauxklore]

Actually, I was misinterpreting the news story I read, but there are two definitely within the neighborhood:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/nyregion/14mosque.html

Both are overflowing and it was clear that there is a need amongst the Islamic communities for a mosque in that neighborhood.

There are also Islamic services every Friday in the Pentagon chapel. And, in fact, the chapel is in the part of the Pentagon that was hit - less than 100 feet away.

[horizonchaser.livejournal.com]

I feel some bozo's going to lay violence on it, honestly. There's just too much drama about it all.

[thnidu.livejournal.com]

And therefore... what? All Muslims should flee the US before the analogue of the Holocaust?

Or maybe, instead... It should have decent security and regular police attention as a possible target.

[horizonchaser.livejournal.com]

If I was walking to a picnic table and suddenly, someone jumped onto it before I could, started screaming at me that I was the devil and get away from there before I put some evil eye on them, I would have a choice.

First, scream and yell right back at them. What does this accomplish? A lot of screaming and yelling, possibly physical altercations, and my day's ruined.

Call a cop. This will likely mean more escalation, more screaming, more yelling, possibly physical altercations, and my day's ruined.

Find another table. I find a table, loonie's got a table, we're all happy.

No, I didn't stand up for my rights. Why?

Pick your battles. Pick the battles that mean something. Pick the battles that are not likely to have a body count.

Call me a coward, but in my mind, the lives of the people are worth a lot more than any principal.

Because I've seen decent security and regular police attention. No security is perfect.

In this case, I'd say there's too much freaking drama. Oh hey, there's a good spot over there away from the psychos. This isn't a good battle. It's a stupid one. No one wins. Walk away and avoid the body count.

You don't "lose" because you walked away. You don't lose for turning the other cheek. You just chose your battle.

[ailbhe]

This notamosque IS a battle that means something, because it's not an isolated picnic table, it's a symbol (and it it wasn't before the controversy it is now) of the right to freedom to assemble and freedom of religious expression, at the very least.

And soon it will also be a symbol that the rule of law, not mob baying, prevails in the USA. That would be nice.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

reposting as it's germane to this comment:

An interesting twist is that the site was chosen because of it being so close to WTC, and having been a building into which the wreckage fell:

The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.”

“We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html

I found that quote by accident; the blogger pointing to it was displeased in that the NYTimes article originally included another line, "New York is the capital of the world, and this location close to 9/11 is iconic", and now does not.

[dichroic.livejournal.com]

I belive in picking your battles - but I can see a lot of reasons to choose this one.

[holzman.livejournal.com]

What on earth makes you think the loonie's going to leave you alone if you find a different table? Suppose the loonie isn't a loonie at all, but a bully, and if you back down from the bully on table 1, they'll be right after your for table 2?

Free hint: Peter King and Pat Robertson are bullies, not loonies.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

The psychos are going to follow you. It doesn't matter. Move the community center, and the psychos are going to be every bit as much a danger at the new place as they would be at the existing place.

It makes sense to put a Muslim community center where the Muslim community is. Why would you want to move the Muslim community center away from the Muslim community?

Mufreesboro, TN isn't far enough away to placate these people -- I choose that place, because there are currently protests about building a mosque there. If Tennessee isn't far enough away, what makes you think that the bigoted terrorists are going to be satisfied by simply moving the community center to somewhere less convenient and farther away from the community it is to serve?

[403.livejournal.com]

Pick your battles. Pick the battles that mean something. Pick the battles that are not likely to have a body count.

There's a logical flaw in this statement. The battles that mean something often do end up with a body count. (Please see the American civil rights movement. Or, for that matter, the Indian independence movement.) If you pick the battles that are guaranteed not to have a body count, then you're unlikely to accomplish anything meaningful.

[navrins]

Interesting about the two mosques; I didn't know that. (I have in fact not really followed the news about this at all; my "facts" basically come from LJ. So I might be thinking about a hypothetical that isn't actually what's happening. Since I don't plan to take any action based on it, I'm okay with that.)

"How far away is far enough?" I don't know. How much risk are they willing to tolerate? Where does the risk peter off?

I'm not proposing anyone should force anyone else to hide; indeed, I actively believe we shouldn't. But at the same time, it is foolish to expose oneself to danger while pretending one is perfectly safe. If there is danger - and there is - then one can choose to prepare for it and face it, or one can choose to avoid it. Pretending it doesn't exist because you believe it shouldn't exist is not a rational option.

You choose to face the danger you perceive, and I respect you for that. But I also respect the rights of others to choose not to face dangers.

[voltbang.livejournal.com]

There are other mosques nearby. This is not a mosque, it is a community center, that contains a mosque. And here's the key, they are not adding a mosque, they are replacing an existing facility. There is already a facility there that functions as a mosque. They are not adding a mosque, they are adding a swimming pool.

Why is there fear and risk? Because certain public figures turned this into an issue. It's a non-issue, but politicaly minded people turned it into one. Go to ground zero, and walk to the location of this project. You will see more halal food carts that you will know what to do with. Islam is strongly represented there, like so many other cultures. It's new york. Will they back down? They are New Yorkers, ok, they are muslim new yorkers but they are new yorkers. Back down because they are afraid of offending someone?

If you move a community center out of the community, can you still call it a community center?

[horizonchaser.livejournal.com]

If you put a Later Day Saints Temple into a community center, is it still a community center? ;) (if you're not aware, you must be a baptized LDS member to enter one of the Temples).

[voltbang.livejournal.com]

Depends on the effect that the LDS temple has on the community center surrounding it. Yes, I am aware of their policies. Their huge temple here in DC was built with the promise that it would be open to the public, and it was. For a day. Then they closed it, and tore out all the carpets. They have a visitor center that unbelievers can go into.

In the case at hand, neither the community center nor the mosque requires that you be a muslim to enter. If they pull a switcheroo and change that policy, I will happily say "you told me so" to the people who object, and agree with them, but until then...

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

It doesn't matter WHERE they build a Muslim community center. The terrorist thugs who are willing to attack Muslims will attack them no matter what. Build it on the Moon, it will STILL be a target for violence.

It's the same risk. It doesn't matter. Putting it somewhere else won't make it safer. People who equate all Muslims with terrorists aren't going to care WHERE the Muslims are.