Why don't we hang white-collar criminals?

[xiphias]

I did a bit of back-of-the envelope calculation.

I believe that if you take the value of every single thing stolen by every burglar, mugger, and robber in the United States today -- it's less than half of what Bernie Madoff stole.

In the United States, about $550 million dollars worth of stuff is stolen by "blue-collar" criminals every year. Armed robbers, muggers, smash-and-grabbers, burglars, pickpockets, and so forth.

So. Figure that there are criminals alive today who were stealing stuff forty years ago. 40 years at $550 million per year is $22 billion.

Bernie Madoff not only stole more than any violent criminal -- he stole more than all violent criminals in the United States. Put together.

(n the other hand, things in the category of "theft of office supplies" comes to about $600 billion. I think that category includes things like using the company truck to take your kids to their soccer games and watching porn on the corporate net connection, not just walking off with pens.)

Comments

[dancing-kiralee.livejournal.com]

Well, we don't hang burglars either. The crimes that merit corporal punishment are almost always violent crimes - assault, murder, rape - and even then usually only if there are a lot of victims, or they are particularly innocent (children, for example).

Kiralee

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but burglars don't do anywhere near the level of damage.

I mean, a thief can steal a painting.

Madoff stole enough money that Brandeis may have to get rid of an entire art museum.

[dancing-kiralee.livejournal.com]

So,

I think Madoff deserves to be dropped off the face of the Earth; the organizations he hurt were charities, and that's just wrong.

But, however I personally feel about it, I'm not sure I want a legal system that would actually drop him off the face of the Earth... Or, as you put it, hang him. I want my legal system to think about these things a little more carefully.

It may be that you are right; I believe that this country should take white collar crime more seriously than it does (although I think the death penalty might be going too far); and I have seen evidence - mostly independent of your arguments - that stock fraud does cause more damage than burglary.

Nonetheless, your argument fails...

1) The form of your argument is this:

The consequences of crime A (Madoff's stock fraud) are worse than the consequences of crime B (Burglary), therefore we should punish people who commit crime A (Madoff's stock fraud) by killing them.

Imagine using this form with different entries for crime A and crime B...

The consequences of Crime A (Burglary) are worse than the consequences of crime B (running a red light), therefore we should punish people who commit crime A (Burglary) by killing them.

We can change the form slightly by defining a severe crime to be one that warrents corporal punishment. So...

The consequences of Crime A (Madoff's stock fraud) are worse than the consequences of *severe* crime B (multiple rape and homicide of children), therefore we should punish people who commit crime A (Madoff's stock fraud) by killing them.

But not...

The consequences of Crime A (Burglary) are worse than the consequences of *severe* crime B (running a red light), therefore we should punish people who commit crime A (Burglary) by killing them.

... because running a red light is not a severe crime. But also not...

The consequences of Crime A (Madoff's stock fraud) are worse than the consequences of *severe* crime B (Burglary), therefore we should punish people who commit crime A (Madoff's stock fraud) by killing them.

... because Burglary is also not a *severe* crime.

No matter how much worse the consequences of Madoff's actions are, you can not prove that they deserve the death penalty by comparing them to Burglary, because Burglary is not a severe crime.

Please note - I haven't proven that Madoff's actions don't deserve the death penalty; and I'm not saying that. I'm not saying your wrong; I'm saying your argument doesn't prove that you are right.

Kiralee

[sinboy.livejournal.com]

A better example might be treason, which is a capital crime, and can be leveled for spying that doesn't kill anyone. Bernie Madoff has arguably dome more damage than a spy, so why is his rime not as harshly punished? I'd guess it's because he doesn't generate the level of moral outrage that a spy does in the majority of the population. If he did, he'd be killed.

Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

They have money. America is an auction, not a democracy. People who can manipulate money thrive here, even if they do it dirty. Physical violence is not respected as much, but still respected somewhat, unless done by a woman, in which it must be condemned with great vigor.

Re: Hmm...

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

IAWTC.

No-one hangs "white-collar criminals" because more often than not, it is THEY who write the laws. Most so-called governments are little more than well greased graft-machines. With non-democratic governments this goes without saying, in "democracies" it is simply "behind the scenes".

White Collar Crime

[(Anonymous)]

You miss a point -- he stole from RICH folks! Stealing money from them that's got may ruffle some feathers, but is viewed less seriously (cf: Robin Hood) than stealin' from them that's not ... Unless, of course you tick of the Super Rich -- then they'll get ya.

dod

Re: White Collar Crime

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

'Course, in this case, he stole from Brandeis, Birthright Israel, and the Shapiro Cultural Fund.

We're really hurting here in Boston, and, of course, most American Jewish philanthropic organizations are in pain, too.