Cool Jewgeeky thing Lis and I figured out yesterday!

[xiphias]

We were reading a bunch of the laws of Pesach, because, well, we do that sort of thing for fun, and we got into the section on "how to make sure that your matzah doesn't lose its essential breadlike characteristics, even if you are modifying it so that the aged and infirm can eat it more easily."

And we realized something.

According to Klein's commentary on the Shulchan Aruch, bread does not lose its essential bread-ness if it is dipped in something and fried. It remains bread. However, if it is torn into small bits, dipped in something and fried, it does lose its essential bread-ness.

This means that french toast, done normally, requires the blessing "ha-motzi". However, croutons, for instance, would take the blessing "mizonot", instead.

Matzah brie is most typically made by crumbling the matzah into chunks, dipping them in egg, and frying. This means that it takes the mizonot blessing. If you took whole matzahs, dipped them in egg, and fried them, they'd take the blessing ha-motzi.

After you eat a meal in which you say ha-motzi, you need to say Birkat Ha-Mazon. Which is a fairly lengthy prayer. After you eat a meal in which you say mizonot, you need to say a much, much shorter prayer.

So, the reason you break matzah brie into bits while making it is so that you don't need to say Birkat Ha-Mazon after breakfast, which would be a pain in the butt!

Comments

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

*grin* Reminds me of altar-server etiquette. Completely different content, similar sense of surreal pragmatism.

[penmage.livejournal.com]

However, croutons, for instance, would take the blessing "mizonot", instead.

Actually, according to - I actually don't remember who. But I know it is backed up - Croutons made from bread are hamotzi no matter what (and this is definitly annoying when you just want a few croutons for your soup...)

[yehoshua.livejournal.com]

So, the reason you break matzah brie into bits while making it is so that you don't need to say Birkat Ha-Mazon after breakfast, which would be a pain in the butt!

Well.... kind of. Some authorities pasken that way. Others pasken that until shvii shel Pesach, matza is motzi no matter what, so you're m'chayev the beracha and bentsching no matter how you cook it, and you should keep it whole so you can make the beracha properly. However, these poskim also tend to be the same ones who hold by gebrokts, so they're not going to make matza brie during Pesach mamish anyway.

For acharon shel Pesach, there's a machloches on whether or not matza is motzi or mezonos because there's a sofek about the status of the day itself (it's so d'rabbanan that keeping it strictly is dubious), and "most" poskim rule leniently (I'm pretty sure Ger is an exception, and maybe Belz). There's also no question that gebrokts doesn't apply during acharon, so it doesn't matter if you soak your matzot in eggs for a while before cooking them because it doesn't matter if the result is chametz[1]. So matza brie, rather than being an example of your reading of S"A, xiphias, it could just as easily be read to prohibit breaking up your matza that way and frying it, at least for those who hold by gebrokts.

[1] NB: this interpretation RE: gebrokts opens up a whole 'nother machlochet about the status of your keilim if you eat gebrokts on acharon shel Pesach. CYL*R.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Well, this is all based on Klein's commentary, and Klein specifically allows the soaking of matzah in liquid on Pesach -- in fact, he requires it in some circumstances (by Klein's opinion, an elderly or infirm person who cannot chew the matzah may soak it in water in order to be able to eat it, and can fulfil the mitzvah of matzah thereby so long as the matzah does not, completely, dissolve. If soaking in water is not sufficient to allow the person to eat it, Klein allows the soaking in wine or juice.)

[yehoshua.livejournal.com]

I believe that's also the opinion of the Kitzur, but that doesn't stop other people from being frummer from God.

[trinker.livejournal.com]

Wow. Ian, if you wouldn't mind interpreting this for the goyim amongst your readership.

My knowledge of judaica is pretty good, but this is way over my head. And I'm geeky enough to want to understand it.

--Trinker
who didn't get to a seder this year, alas, but did have a fake Passover dinner at a local deli tonight. Gefilte fish, charosets, tsimmes...

Now available in English by pressing the SAP button on your remote

[yehoshua.livejournal.com]

Well.... kind of. Some authorities decide the Law that way. Others hold that until the seventh day of Passover, matza requires the blessing over bread no matter what, so you're obliged to use the blessing for bread before and after your meal no matter how you cook it, and you should keep it whole so you can make the blessings properly. However, these rabbis also tend to be the same ones who hold that matza which contacts liquid during Passover may become leaven because uncooked flour may be present, so they're not going to make matza brie during the Biblically mandated portion of Passover anyway.

For the rabbinically mandated eighth day of Passover, there's a question on whether or not matza is bread or "pastry" because there's a question about the status of the day itself (it's so rabbinical in origin that keeping it strictly is dubious), and "most" rabbis rule leniently (I'm pretty sure Ger hassids is an exception, and maybe Belz hassids). There's also no question that the matza+liquid=leven rule doesn't apply during the eighth day, so it doesn't matter if you soak your matzas in eggs for a while before cooking them because it doesn't matter if the result is leven[1]. So matza brie, rather than being an example of your reading of S"A, xiphias, it could just as easily be read to prohibit breaking up your matza that way and frying it, at least for those who hold by the matza+liquid rules.

[1] NB: this interpretation RE: matza+liquid concerns open up a whole 'nother question about the status of your dishes if you eat moistened matzas on the eighth day of Passover. Consult your local $denominational Rabbi.

Re: Now available in English by pressing the SAP button on your remote

[trinker.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[goljerp]

So, the reason you break matzah brie into bits while making it is so that you don't need to say Birkat Ha-Mazon after breakfast, which would be a pain in the butt!

Oh. I thought the reason you break matzah brie into bits was because most[1] matzah is square, while most[2] frying pans are round. If you break it up, you can fit more into the pan, speeding up the process.

[1] Most mechanically prepared matzah, that is.
[2] Most typical frying pans, that is.