Massachusetts Question 1 got curb-stomped

[xiphias]

So that ballot measure to repeal the income tax, gutting our state budget?

Defeated by more than 2-to-1.

This not only crushed the measure, but may have totally destroyed the Libertarian brand in Massachusetts.

I'm a little ambivalent about that. Like I said, I'm terrified by the idea of Libertarians getting power -- but I do think that, on some issues, they're a useful voice.

However, since decriminalization of marijuana passed almost as decisively as Question 1 failed, it looks like my fellow Massachusetts citizens largely agree with me about the parts of libertarianism which are good, and the parts which are not.

Comments

[papersky.livejournal.com]

Massachusetts rocks. Well done you guys.

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

Excellent.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

This is a comment that adds no new information except that I agree with you. :)

[cellio]

From what I've heard (I don't live there so haven't had front-row seats), the problem with the income-tax proposition wasn't "libertarianism" but an irresponsibly-written proposal. You can't attack just one side of the tax problem; you have to articulate what the new budget would look like. What specificially will you cut, or what specific alternative levies will you impose? Sounds like the folks behind this measure didn't do that.

It's not a flaw in the philosophy but the implementation. (And do you know that it was actually sponsored by libertarians and not republicans?)

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Because Carla Howell, who is behind it, is the head of the Massachusetts Libertarian party.

[cellio]

Ah, thanks. Then the libertarians in MA need to have a long talk with her...

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

I don't understand what you mean. She was the Libertarian candidate for governor; she's the head of the party. She's defines Libertarianism.

What is libertarianism except a desire to gut government and prevent it from being able to provide services?

[dancing-kiralee.livejournal.com]

That doesn't mean the other Libertarians in MA can't have a long talk with her, or chose someone else as their leader.

Although I think the lack of detail in the implementation is intentional.

Personally, I was hoping for a narrow defeat, rather than an overwhelming one. If the Libertarians are a credible threat, I think politicians are less likely to abuse the tax money they have.

Kiralee

[cellio]

Does John McCain define Republicanism? I've met lots of Republicans who say otherwise. Being the party's candidate means you get a bigger voice, not that you have the only voice.

What is libertarianism except a desire to gut government and prevent it from being able to provide services?

A desire to transfer more responsibility from governments to individuals. Governments should provide for the things that are just plain impracticel to provide any other way -- for example, national defense, police forces, stuff like that. The rest should be handled by the people, self-organizing into whatever voluntary groups they choose to make that easier, and paying for it with the money that is no longer being taken by the government.

That's the ideal. (Well, one of them -- as noted before, not everyone in a group agrees 100%.) But since no one can wave a magic wand and transport us to Libertaria, any efforts to move in that direction have to be done responsibly and incrementally. It sounds like this proposition missed that mark pretty drastically.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

But the reason the government DOES the things it does is because nobody else did them before the government did them. What makes libertarians think that people will do them if the government doesn't? History has shown that people just plain don't work that way.

[cellio]

nobody else did them before the government did them

I disbelieve. History did not start with the New Deal.

Will people step up now? Not all at once; people have gotten too used to the state taking care of everything for us. But people have been self-sufficient before and I believe it would be possible to move back in that direction.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Have you read Dickens? The social structures that Dickens wrote about are pretty much what existed.

Can you point to a large-scale urban society in which social services were provided in a non-governmental way? For these purposes, the Church counts as a government, in that it collected taxes, had an administrative bureaucracy, and law enforcement powers . . .

[navrins]

She was briefly quoted on NPR this morning. She's not giving up.

[sarianna.livejournal.com]

it looks like my fellow Massachusetts citizens largely agree with me about the parts of libertarianism which are good, and the parts which are not.
...and those who disagree can always move to NH. ;)

[delerium69.livejournal.com]

Wait, so the decriminalization bill passed? I'm impressed.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

By a 2-to-1 margin, yup. I'd guess that the breakdown, probably, is a third of Massachusetts wants to see marijuana legal, a third wants it illegal, and a third doesn't want people to use it, but just can't see wasting jail space and criminal trial resource on it.

[delerium69.livejournal.com]

And is true that MA passed a bill banning dog racing?

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

It is. The margin was closer than the other two ballot initiatives -- it was only 55%-45%, instead of 65-35 for marijuana decriminalization, and 70-30 against repeal of income tax. But it passed.

That was the one measure that didn't go the way I voted, because I thought that we could deal with the animal cruelty issues in some manner short of banning racing entirely, but I'm not broken up over it. I want to see what happens to the Wonderland track, though -- I hope they can put something there that will replace the jobs that were lost, and maybe even rejuvinate that Revere neighborhood.

[delerium69.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm curious myself. We used to go to Revere Beach a lot when I was little, but then it really went downhill for a while. It's been built back up over the years, so I hope they'll use this opportunity to further improve the area.

Mm, now I'm missing Kelly's Roast Beef...

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

There's a branch of Kelly's just a few miles from me, and I was just thinking that I wanted a roast beef or a pastrami from there. Unfortunately, Lis has the car today, and three miles is a little more than I want to walk at the moment. If I was in shape, that'd be reasonable . . . there's an incentive, come to think of it.

[delerium69.livejournal.com]

A good reward for a long walk, I say.

Off topic:

[whuffle.livejournal.com]

I mentioned your interest in finding a gaming group to our folks last time we met. Everyone was in favor of meeting potential new players so if you want to come sit in, our next session is going to be Thursday Nov 13. If you want to come sit in, the gm has said he would love to hand you an NPC to play for the night. Send me an email at my lj name with your email address so I can put the GM in touch with you.

[eerielass.livejournal.com]

yes! what a relief.