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xiphiasI posted a couple days ago about thinking about joining the Masons, as a possible way of advancing my career. And one person said that that would be giving myself an unfair advantage, since, if it DID work, it would be an advantage not available to women or atheists. And other people, who are Masons themselves, said that they WOULD feel more comfortable hiring a fellow Mason, since it would be evidence that they could trust their fellow.
So I've been thinking about this, going over pros and cons in my mind.
First, there is the "membership fairness" issue. I do not define myself as an atheist, but I don't define myself as absolutely a theist, either. I go back and forth, and I accept theism, atheism, and agnosticism in the kids I teach in Hebrew school, and try to teach them that all of those are acceptable and reasonable ways to be Jewish. If I join an organization that denies membership to atheists, am I being unfair to that part of my belief, that atheism is a valid method of Judaism? That, of course, is separate from the "women" issue -- I don't know if Eastern Star members use the same handshakes and would get the same consideration as Masons.
The second question is how I would feel about getting a hiring preference for something other than my competence and ability to do the job.
I believe that 1) the universe is unfair, and 2) as human beings, one of our jobs is to create fairness and justice. I go back and forth on the question of whether one may justly use existing unfairness that is in one's favor.
I mean, I'm a white male, which means that I just automatically get lots of benefits -- being a white male, I get treated at a fair baseline, something that people who AREN'T white males DON'T necessarily get. But I don't feel that I am required to get myself to be treated WORSE than I am -- I merely feel that it's my job to attempt to get other people to be treated as I am.
However, if joining the Masons WOULD give me an edge, that would be doing something that would raise myself ABOVE the baseline.
Then, of course, there's the question of whether that IS a good reason to join a fraternal service organization. CAN one join a charitable society for selfish reasons? That seems deeply twisted to me -- joining them in order to try to get ahead? That doesn't' seem like it's what the PURPOSE of the Masons is. Hey, Masons on my friendslist? How would YOU feel about finding out that a Mason was driven to join because he thought it would get himself an edge in business? Does that sound kind of icky to you?
A fourth issue is, if there WAS an advantage to becoming a Mason, that would require ME to give a similar consideration to fellow Masons, and I don't know how I'd feel about that. I certainly couldn't take advantage of something without offering a similar thing to others, and I don't know how I feel about that.
And then there's the fifth issue of the time and resources it would take to be a Mason. That would come with obligations to go to meetings, serve on committees, and so forth.
And yet. . . ironically,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
papersky's story about the fellow who was promoted past other people, because he was a Mason, is the most seductive reason I've heard. Wouldn't it be nice to have unfairness work in one's favor for once? If that got me closer to my goals, and my goals are worthwhile, is THAT worthwhile?
Would Masonic membership allow me to do better things for the world? They are a service organization -- what sorts of charitable works would I be able to participate in?
What are the costs, to me, and to the world? What are the benefits, to me, and to the world? What are the relevant ethics and morals involved?
So I've been thinking about this, going over pros and cons in my mind.
First, there is the "membership fairness" issue. I do not define myself as an atheist, but I don't define myself as absolutely a theist, either. I go back and forth, and I accept theism, atheism, and agnosticism in the kids I teach in Hebrew school, and try to teach them that all of those are acceptable and reasonable ways to be Jewish. If I join an organization that denies membership to atheists, am I being unfair to that part of my belief, that atheism is a valid method of Judaism? That, of course, is separate from the "women" issue -- I don't know if Eastern Star members use the same handshakes and would get the same consideration as Masons.
The second question is how I would feel about getting a hiring preference for something other than my competence and ability to do the job.
I believe that 1) the universe is unfair, and 2) as human beings, one of our jobs is to create fairness and justice. I go back and forth on the question of whether one may justly use existing unfairness that is in one's favor.
I mean, I'm a white male, which means that I just automatically get lots of benefits -- being a white male, I get treated at a fair baseline, something that people who AREN'T white males DON'T necessarily get. But I don't feel that I am required to get myself to be treated WORSE than I am -- I merely feel that it's my job to attempt to get other people to be treated as I am.
However, if joining the Masons WOULD give me an edge, that would be doing something that would raise myself ABOVE the baseline.
Then, of course, there's the question of whether that IS a good reason to join a fraternal service organization. CAN one join a charitable society for selfish reasons? That seems deeply twisted to me -- joining them in order to try to get ahead? That doesn't' seem like it's what the PURPOSE of the Masons is. Hey, Masons on my friendslist? How would YOU feel about finding out that a Mason was driven to join because he thought it would get himself an edge in business? Does that sound kind of icky to you?
A fourth issue is, if there WAS an advantage to becoming a Mason, that would require ME to give a similar consideration to fellow Masons, and I don't know how I'd feel about that. I certainly couldn't take advantage of something without offering a similar thing to others, and I don't know how I feel about that.
And then there's the fifth issue of the time and resources it would take to be a Mason. That would come with obligations to go to meetings, serve on committees, and so forth.
And yet. . . ironically,
papersky's story about the fellow who was promoted past other people, because he was a Mason, is the most seductive reason I've heard. Wouldn't it be nice to have unfairness work in one's favor for once? If that got me closer to my goals, and my goals are worthwhile, is THAT worthwhile?Would Masonic membership allow me to do better things for the world? They are a service organization -- what sorts of charitable works would I be able to participate in?
What are the costs, to me, and to the world? What are the benefits, to me, and to the world? What are the relevant ethics and morals involved?
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-28 07:34 pm (UTC)Elsewhere on that site, which I can't find right now, is something that pretty clearly (but implicitly) says that giving hiring preference to fellow Masons is against the principles of the organization.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-28 07:47 pm (UTC)Down in the lower right, in a little box.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-28 08:07 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-28 07:58 pm (UTC)Join the masons for the society of well-meaning people
Date: 2008-03-28 08:19 pm (UTC)I feel that joining the Masons for favor on catering jobs is about like joining an evangelical church to get in their "fish" directory. It seems a little naive and shallow, frankly. But I'm sure there are folks who do it.
Who knows, you might join the masons and find out that you come out the other end a little less naive and shallow (regardless of how you go in, actually...:), and with some really good friends, but it might be good for you to go into it with a better intention than business networking.
This isn't a social network like friendster where making a friend is something you do with the click of a button and no thought.
rambling answer time
Date: 2008-03-28 08:28 pm (UTC)2 - I do not think you would get a 'hiring preference' so much as having a few more options. If you only commuted to work via T would you consider it a hiring preference to have a car to drive to employment nto so T accessible? All this would really do for 'hiring preference' is in case there was a Masonic job give you the edge over a non-Mason. I am not sure there are enough of these to constitute a quantitative difference in getting a job. Well, then again I do not drink a lot so maybe I am missing those events.
3 - a good reason to join? to meet people you might not have otherwise and to work on ways of becoming a better person. Personally I was a lot shyer when I started in the Lodge. Any case, if I knew someone was joining for mercenary motives I would blackball them from joining. Those that do join for mercenary motives by lying to the interviewing committee are often quickly disillusioned that the Lodge is not bursting with business contacts and they wander away after receiving their degrees.
4 - you can only offer as a benefit to others what you have to offer. The benfits other Masons get by knowing me? The older guys occasionally get a person to help them with their computers who could do house calls. I would do this for friends and family, but the only reason the WWII vets know me is because of the Lodge
5 - cost is in time and money. The time is about two meetings a month fo the first four months. After that it is up to you. About three quarters of the average Lodge membership never show up at meetings (age, distance, work schedule, family committment, etc). You could be part of that silent forgotten majority and never lose sleep over it. The money is anywhere from $100 - $500 to join and about $50 - $100 a year for dues. Again, the time committment is up to you. I am an odd duck in regards to my level of committment. Most folks are 'active' at once a month meetings.
Charity? Whole bunches. At
As to that story about a Mason that was promotoed above / before others simply because he was a Mason? Yeah, my grandmother heard that story before she married my grandfather (1935?). Yet no-one can ever point out a Mason that has actually had that happen. Sounds like a Friend of a friend urban legend that dates back to the Anti_masonic party in the 1820's. No really, there was a political party called that. Sad, but true.
Hope this hepls, lemme know if you have any other questions.
Re: rambling answer time
Date: 2008-03-29 04:21 am (UTC)Re: rambling answer time
Date: 2008-03-29 01:15 pm (UTC)As to how it would work, you would put your Uncle's name on the application, one investigating committee would check with the Grand Lodge where he lived to make sure he is/was a Mason and that would be about it. For finding a local Chapter you can go here.
Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions.
Re: rambling answer time
Date: 2008-03-29 02:38 pm (UTC)Re: rambling answer time
Date: 2008-03-30 04:19 pm (UTC)As to that story about a Mason that was promotoed above / before others simply because he was a Mason? Yeah, my grandmother heard that story before she married my grandfather (1935?). Yet no-one can ever point out a Mason that has actually had that happen.
Oh, I dunno. I think there's a grain of truth in this, but no more than any other form of networking. I mean, the electrician I'm likely to hire is a guy who I know from Lodge, and yes, I'm likely to hire him in part *because* I know him from Lodge. But by the same token, our realtor is a friend who we know through the SCA.
Being an active and involved member in any organization gives you a leg up with other members of the organization, because *every* club is built on ties of trust and friendship. This used to be much more powerful with Masonry than with the others, simply because it was so much *bigger*. Nowadays, though, I suspect the effect is relatively minimal. And I suspect that the "active and involved" part is very important here -- simply having a sticker on the back of your car doesn't help much.
And to be fair: the Masonic initiation rituals put an *enormous* amount of weight on the brotherhood aspect, and extending the trust in both directions. (That is, that you should trust your brother Masons, and that you should be worthy of that trust.) It would be fairly surprising if that didn't spill over into mundane life a bit. But again, people are more likely to trust someone who they have gotten to know *through* Lodge, rather than trusting them simply because *of* Lodge...
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-28 08:29 pm (UTC)But you really would probably get more work.
But you'd have to help them too, and those posts people made following up to my comment saying "I'd trust any Mason with my life" struck me as deeply creepy. I mean I assume they're your friends and therefore the nicest Masons of all, so consider that too.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-28 08:46 pm (UTC)Ouchie. I consider myself pretty gosh darn ethical. And a generally nice person too!
Most Masons (like 90+%)I know get a tad unsettled when the subject of unethical behaviour comes up.
I guess I will have to go back and look at the other post to see your comment and the follow-up comments.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-29 01:02 am (UTC)[1] I don't use that narrow a definition of "friend"--there are people I like, enjoy spending time with, and will help out who I wouldn't trust with my life.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-30 04:31 pm (UTC)Enh -- it's not so creepy when you know the context. Mutual trust is built way down deep into Masonry's core: indeed, it may be the oldest part of the club, dating back 600 years or so. Remember that this was originally a medieval guild, and it was all *about* helping one's brethren in difficult times.
That's written pretty richly into the rituals and oaths, and it leads to a measure of mindfulness on the subject. This trust thing doesn't come out of nowhere: when you join, you swear, in no uncertain terms, to help your fellow Masons when they're in a pickle and to be good and true to them. Every Mason is very conscious of having taken that oath, and that the other guy took it as well. Indeed, there are formalisms within the club for saying "I am *really* in trouble here, and need your help", and you are bound to render help when that's invoked.
So while "I'd trust any Mason with my life" is an exaggeration for me, it's fair to work on the assumption that a Mason is at least going to think pretty hard about it before screwing one of his brethren over, and is likely to render assistance when needed. Granted, that's true in most clubs and associations, but the effect is more powerful in Masonry simply because it is so *explicit*. And such an absolute statement is basically a statement of faith in one's fellows, that they aren't going to break their oaths.
Really, it's one of the better aspects of the ritual, because that mindfulness bleeds over into one's general attitude towards others. I mean, most guys, having taken that oath to help fellow Masons, have the brains to realize that it *should* apply to everybody else as well. So it tends to lead towards a thoughtfully charitable outlook in general...
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-28 08:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-28 08:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-31 03:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-28 10:33 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-29 01:07 am (UTC)Also, nobody can join all the available social groups--there are only so many hours in a day, and if you spend all of them networking, you won't be available for any actual jobs--so we have to make choices.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-28 10:53 pm (UTC)I am ... not impressed with the organization. There are a lot of things I dislike about it.
I think if you ally yourself with an organization there should be deeper ties than networking goals. If you call yourself a Mason, you're signing on to what they claim to believe and promote. Your tying yourself to them - historically and contemporarily. And, frankly, you're furthering good ol' boy cronyism, whether it's "officially" against the "prime duty" or not.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-29 12:52 am (UTC)I fail to see why a member of any organization should automatically be considered trustworthy because of that membership, let alone more trustworthy than non-members.
Since noting one's masonic cred or lack thereof seems to be the done thing: my paternal grandfather was a grand mason. My maternal grandfather was a high-ranking Knight of Columbus. Take your pick.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-29 03:51 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-29 05:59 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-29 01:12 am (UTC)My only vaguely direct experiences with Masonry are having my ear talked off (quite enjoyably, in fact) by Justin du Coeur at some past Arisia about it, and an encounter with very aged Shriners. I was in their temple because, believe it or not, I was working the booth for UltraNet at a techie trade show being held there. One aged Shriner in particular was opining to somebody about all the longhairs present in a none-too-friendly manner. I certainly hope this was a generational and not an organizational feature...based on what I've heard and seen, what you get varies greatly by individual lodge.
trying to answer questions
Date: 2008-03-29 12:38 pm (UTC)2 - as someone who had a one foot long braid I will go with the opinion being mostly a generational one. Most of the older guys would comment on it until they git to know me a little, some of the younger (under 65) guys might be conservative in dress as well, just less likely. I chalk a lot of that up to the older guys being WWI, WWII and Korean era vets. Long haired types were the 'them' in the 'us vs them' equation for a while, so it takes a little getting used to.
Hope this helps.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-30 04:08 pm (UTC)A fair complaint, but I don't think it's really something to get irritated about -- it's nothing more nor less than a consequence of the club's age.
Today, that looks weird, if not faintly ridiculous. (Indeed, it's one of the primary reasons why, one of these years, I'm planning on creating a new club in the same spirit, a little more attuned to the times.) But at the time -- and keep in mind, Masonry is still basically the same club it was in 1717 -- it wasn't even questioned. That was just plain normal at the time for a semi-professional organization. So while you can fault the founders for not being unusually forward-looking, I look at it as a unfortunate historical curiosity that will probably eventually kill the club, rather than getting too annoyed about it.
(As for why it's *still* male-only, that has to do with the founders as well. It included some impressively good lawyers, who wrote a really tight oath for entrance. Basically, there's no way to change that rule without somebody oath-breaking -- which immediately breaks the chain of succession and renders the whole thing invalid.)
One aged Shriner in particular was opining to somebody about all the longhairs present in a none-too-friendly manner. I certainly hope this was a generational and not an organizational feature...based on what I've heard and seen, what you get varies greatly by individual lodge.
Yaas. The fact is, the club is still trying to overcome a really nasty generation gap, and that shows -- when the average age of a lodge's members is 70-something, that shows in its attitudes.
It does vary a lot from lodge to lodge, and at this point I'd say that the ones that are reasonably with the times are the minority. But those are precisely the ones that have younger members, and are therefore going to survive longer, so I expect attitudes to gradually but steadily shift as the demographics do...
joining the masons
Date: 2008-03-29 08:22 am (UTC)the gender stuff totally nixes it for me personally; i'm not interested in service segregated by gender; i think most gender segregation is actively harmful.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-29 04:06 pm (UTC)Dude. As you've pointed out, you're a white male - and a heterosexually-married one at that, and you live in the wealthiest and most powerful nation on earth. I know there are factors that counteract that, but still, it already works in your favour almost all the time.
dude! you're a het white male!
Date: 2008-03-30 08:44 am (UTC)Re: dude! you're a het white male!
Date: 2008-03-30 03:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-29 04:59 pm (UTC)To be honest the extra jobs you will probably get will come via old fashioned networking, IE a friend of a friend is having a party and needs someone. I don't consider networking unethical at all.
Part I
Date: 2008-03-31 05:23 pm (UTC)1) "a possible way of advancing my career."
My first, honest gut-reaction is 'don't join the fraternity'. You'd be joining for entirely the wrong reason.
If you did join for that reason, you'd be sorely disappointed. Sure, joining a lodge could advance your career... as could joining any group... the Kiwanis or Rotary, a book club at the library, or a group of people that like to talk about their cats. The larger your social circle, the more people you know, the more varied their pool of interests and needs, and the larger your exposure.
But aside from when it incidentally happens... it's just not what we do.
2) "an advantage not available to women or atheists."
If it worked, that'd be true. But then again, you'd be deprived of advantages available to members of those group... or any other group you simply can't belong to.
I've gotten work because I happen to be involved in the roleplaying game community. It would have been dumb to turn it down, just because the opportunity was not available to someone that doesn't throw dice.
3) "And other people ... WOULD feel more comfortable hiring a fellow Mason"
In some cases, true. I know Masons that I won't trust farther than I can throw them.
I would be more comfortable hiring someone that I knew was a good person. Seeing a masonic ring on one's finger would be a piece of evidence pointing towards that conclusion... but is not conclusive by itself. As well, all other things being equal, I'm going to hire the person I have more in common with - be it hobbies, interests, or whatnot - as it'll provide a better experience overall. But that's if all other things are equal.
4) "I do not define myself as an atheist, but I don't define myself as absolutely a theist, either."
An atheist is "one who believes that there is no deity" according to good ol' Miriam-Webster. If you do not have such a belief, then you are fine.
Take my religious beliefs, for instance: I'm not arrogant enough to believe myself to be the top of the foodchain... but I admit that I simply don't understand the nature of what's up there. I do not have personal knowledge of the deity (and I doubt that any of us really do). And I do not think us of great enough significance, that a god would directly intervene in our lives. What I do acknowledge is that creation is inherently good... so whatever created and led to the creation of the universe, is intently good, by definition.
Some would call me an atheist, but they'd be wrong. Regardless, the requirement is all about reverence and morality. You need to respect that others have beliefs you do not subscribe to.
5) "If I join an organization that denies membership to atheists, am I being unfair to that part of my belief, that atheism is a valid method of Judaism?"
Nah. In fact, that belief of yours would make you a stronger candidate... you are tolerant of the differing beliefs of those around you.
6) "I don't know if Eastern Star members use the same handshakes and would get the same consideration as Masons."
As an Eastern Star member, I can definitively say that they do not use the 'same handshakes'. They have their own symbols and ritual.
That said, I don't think I've ever used the ritual signs (the handshakes, for instance) outside of ritual in the lodge room... they're frankly not very useful. Most often, I've identified brothers by symbol rings, car medallions, tattoos, and them saying "Hey, I'm a mason, too."
7) "a good reason to join a fraternal service organization"
The masons are not a fraternal service organization. We are a fraternity; at times we are organized (*smirk*); and we value charity and service... but it is not our focus, by far.
8) "CAN one join a charitable society for selfish reasons"
Sure can. And you'd be rather disappointed by the results of your effort.
Part II
Date: 2008-03-31 05:37 pm (UTC)I've been on investigations where exactly that has happened. I generally tell them that that's really not what we do, and that they will be disappointed if that really is their motive. Some still opt to join, and often drop quickly when they don't find what they are seeking.
10) "if there WAS an advantage to becoming a Mason, that would require ME to give a similar consideration to fellow Masons"
The benefits you are hypothesizing do not exist, and no such requirement exists.
11) "That would come with obligations to go to meetings, serve on committees"
There are no such obligations. Masonry really doesn't have a time requirement. Other than the time need to attend the rituals to become a mason (usually three nights, a few hours each time) you never have to attend again, and can remain in good standing.
There is a monetary requirement... usually about $30 to cover materials for each degree, and annual dues (mine just went up to $85, after five years without change). And you need to have suitable attire... a suit and tie usually suffices.
Now, that said... you could certainly fill every minute of your free time with related activities, and could spend a fair amount of money. But it's all at your option. You choose your level of involvement.
12) "papersky's story about the fellow who was promoted past other people, because he was a Mason"
Forgive the language, but bullshit. How convenient that someone with a poor opinion of the fraternity has an anecdotal story about corruption in the ranks.
13) "is the most seductive reason I've heard"
I would highly encourage you not to join, based on that. You will be *very* disappointed.
14) "Would Masonic membership allow me to do better things for the world?"
Yes. And for yourself.
You have a basic misconception about what we do... the point of our order is to take good men, and help them improve themselves. We are not a charity or service group... though we value charity and service. We are not a way to get a leg up... though that can sometimes happen, incidentally. We are not a social group, though we hold social functions.
Everyone that comes to masonry comes for their own reasons. For me, it's because my grandfather was a mason, and he was the most honorable and respectable person I've ever known... and I want to emulate that.
Everyone gains their own benefits. For me, I've gotten an outlet to do lots of good charity work and community service (something I've missed since my boy scout days... I've been very involved with the CHIP program, and now host charity game days benefiting Toys for Tots). I've gained a huge social web - I've met and befriended a ton of interesting people. It's been a connecting point for my wife and I, as most events we can attend together (and she's become part of the same social web, as a result). And best of all, I get to personally throw banquets and parties and such, and cook for hundreds of people... something I absolutely love.
It does not sound to me, based on the reasons you listed, like you'd find interest within our organization.
Re: Part II
Date: 2008-04-01 12:59 am (UTC)On the other hand . . . being a member of a group where everybody thought of oaths the same way that I do . . . that seems rather tempting. . .
Quick notes
Date: 2008-04-04 04:20 am (UTC)OTOH, if the idea of being among people under oath appeals, there are groups that use Masonic rites and will admit men and women. One group says that it will admit anyone regardless of religion, but you might want to ask them yourself. Not a member, though I have thought about it.
The American site for one group, Le Droit Humaine, is http://www.comasonic.org/index.html
Re: Quick notes
Date: 2008-04-04 06:15 pm (UTC)