On how people comment on other people's relationships.

[xiphias]

Most folks on my friends list post about their relationships. I can think of three women in particular who post about their husbands (and, if you're not sure if I'm talking about you, feel free to email me and ask), who tend to get comments talking about what bums their husbands are, and how they should just up and leave and get rid of the bum. (And, interestingly, it's only women to whom this happens.)

As I'm sure you can imagine, this does NOT make those women happy.

Now, those three women aren't the only women on my friends list who complain about their husbands, boyfriends, wives, girlfriends, or partners of whatever stripe. But they get a lot more "get rid of the bum" comments than other folks do. Not that they're the only three women who have ever got "get rid of the bum" comments, but they get them a lot more. I see similar dynamics elsewhere on my friends list, but those three women get orders of magnitude more, and more virulent.

Now, one of the things which bothers me about this is that I see myself in all three husbands. I do many of the same things that all three of these "bums" do. And yet Lis assures me that she gets very few of those comments to her blog. ("What? From outside of my family?" she jokes. Actually, I'm pretty sure that her family likes me.)

So I was trying to think about what makes these three LJs different than the ones who get fewer, and the ones who get none.

Note: I'm talking specifically about "get rid of the bum"-type comments. Sympathetic "jeez that sucks" comments, I'm not talking about. Even "want me to smack him with a wet trout for you?"-type comments, I'm not talking about. I'm specifically talking about comments suggesting, in all seriousness, that the relationship is unsalvageable, and that she should leave him.

First: men don't get these comments. Only women do. Now, women, on my friends list, anyway, post about their relationships more than men do -- not that men don't, but on average, the posts from women about their spouses and partners are more frequent and more in-depth, so that gives more opportunity for comments. But that doesn't explain the whole thing -- you'd expect fewer comments to men, but not the absolute absence of them.

Second: in all three cases, children are involved, school-aged, infants, or showing up within nine months. Childless couples don't tend to get this stuff.

Third: in all three cases, lack-of-money is involved. To different extents -- I'd call one of the cases "money is kinda tight a lot of the time", one "money is always tight", and one "poverty", but folks who are pretty much financially secure don't get these comments.

So: why don't I get those comments made about me? Because Lis and I have no children, so people feel that Lis can make her own decisions, because I post about our relationship more than Lis does, and people don't make these comments to men, and because Lis and I, while not wealthy, are reasonably financially secure.

Okay, there's my observations about how people make observations on other people. I hope I was sufficiently vague not to shame anyone, and sufficiently specific to make interesting and possibly even useful comments.

Comments

[navrins]

I don't think I ever tell people they ought to break up with their SO's (not my right, no matter how unhealthy I think the relationship is), but I've come equally close to doing so to both male and female close friends.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

I hypothesize that people get the urge to tell people what to do in their relationships equally much with males and females, but that some people are better at supressing the urge to men.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

Interesting observations.

Maybe there's a perception even now that the man ought to be supporting the family, and that if he isn't, the woman would be better off without him -- and as you say, maybe this kicks in when there is a family, i.e. children involved, and when support, especially financially, seems needed and not forthcoming.

I know I have said on LJ to a male friend that dumping his girlfriend looked like a good plan to me -- I think what I actually posted was "And why are you still with this person again?", but that's a different thing.

Were the posters advising "get rid of the bum" male or female or both?

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Both.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Well and pertinently said. I 've definetely found there's a Nuclear Family Expectation Set that people come up with, even relatively socially liberal people. It's interesting.

*goes off, thinking*

[nolly.livejournal.com]

The only time I would recommend leaving a spouse would be in response to "Sandy[1] beat me up again last night" or similar abuse patterns.[2]

[1] Name chosen for gender-neutrality
[2] Including non-physical abuse, but I can't think of a clear sentence for it at the moment. Maybe "Kelly[1] says y'all are all bad influences on me, and I shouldn't talk to you anymore"

Re: On how people comment on other people's relationships.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

not to argue with your perceptions because hey, i like to see the data before i argue. :) but you know -- that's a tiny sample size.

i just wonder whether these women's partners have LJs... what i mean is that your own visibility might well make a difference as to how people feel they ought to express themselves towards lis.

also, i wonder about the tone and frequency with which those women complain. i can think of some women whom i would advise to leave their partners (and there have been men in the past where i said the same thing), but lis is most definitely not among them, and it's got zilch to do with you having children, or your financial status. it's got everything to do with the feeling i have about your r'ship, and that feeling is that you're doing just fine together in general, even if occasionally one or the other of you hits a low point.

as to "bum" traits, that's an interesting one. i wouldn't say that it's a measure i don't use at all, but it's not a particularly important one, unless it's pronounced in several areas, and a serious, active problem for the partner and the continued existence of the family. since i've lost all my calvinist work ethic i don't measure people by their outward productivity anymore, and i have become much more aware of other facets in how people can be supportive.

Re: On how people comment on other people's relationships.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Yes, those other women's partners have LJs. In all three cases.

And I was thinking about reasons why Lis and I don't get that, and was thinking about how I post about silly conversations Lis and I have, and how, when we do post complaints about each other, we tend to be very careful about bending over backwards to write down things where we, also, screwed up, and how we are both LESS likely to post when we DO have problems with each other -- but I deleted those paragraphs, because, the more I thought about it, the less relevant I felt they were.

Re: On how people comment on other people's relationships.

[pir-anha.livejournal.com]

interesting. to me those things are highly relevant, and contribute to me not dreaming of telling either of you to just dump the other during times of trouble.

i thought about this whole issue some more, and i do have a pattern there, but it seems to me reactive -- i am more likely to tell women than men to leave the bastard, yes. i am more likely to tell women who seem to me to put up with a lot more than i think is healthy for them. and there are more women than men who do that among people of my acquaintance. there are men as well, mind; over the years i've known a lot of nice and kind men who put up with a lot of crap. and i think i act pretty much the same towards them. but overall there are more women in that role. and i am pretty sure that there are cultural factors for that.

Re: On how people comment on other people's relationships.

[dancing-kiralee.livejournal.com]

Why?

When/if I'm considering giving someone advice, all those pieces of information are incredibly important to me, and a major part of how I decide to respond.

In fact, I don't see how you can compare your experience to those of your friends... your presentation is so different from theirs (or at least so different from your report of theirs), that I can't see the two messages as being the same, and so, of course, would not expect the responses to have much of anything in common.

I'll go farther and say that, while you do talk about your relationship, I've never seen a post from you about Lis, or from Lis about you, that I'd put into the category of "venting." Which seemed to be what you were talking about these women doing.

Kiralee

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

I know that my wife got a number of those comments about me, but that's happened since before baby/pregnancy and even during economic OK times.

To be fair: the problems she's posted about have been problems. Sometimes I've been annoyed about them being posted because it felt like 'airing dirty laundry', which felt that our marriage was in a certain way being opened up to others. I have made it a point not to post things like that because it's my dirty laundry and I'd rather work it out with her before posting anything - and when/if it gets worked out there's really no need to do so.

Is there, perhaps, a pattern where the man posts that kind of grump less often than the woman? (not knowing who the people in question are, I don't have a proper clue)

[wordweaverlynn.livejournal.com]

Interesting observations. I've posted similar advice to a guy who was in a loveless, sexless, emotionally abusive relationship with a woman whose grown children were taking huge financial advantage of their stepfather. Rather, I asked why the complainer was staying. Years later, he's still bitching and still in the marriage, so I have to assume that he gets more from the relationship than he reveals -- perhaps including the righteous feeling of being persecuted. I've stopped reading his plaints. It was also fairly clear, if between the lines, that his wife would have a very different perspective on the matter.

However, I am also aware (having been the stay-at-home spouse and identified Crazy Person) that there are far greater complexities to any dysfunctional relationship. And that in practical terms, having one person at home dealing with things (even if not doing all the housework) can be very useful.

[ailbhe]

Hm. I think there's more of a perception that women (more so than men) can be *trapped* in relationships, unaware of their power to leave, especially when children are involved. Rarely does anyone suggest that a woman leave her partner *and children* and it's very rare, in my experience, for a man to leave and take children with him.

There are far fewer complications, without human children involved, at least from outside any gfiven relationship.

[sashajwolf.livejournal.com]

I think there's more of a perception that women (more so than men) can be *trapped* in relationships, unaware of their power to leave

Yes, that was my first thought, too.

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

I've suggested people leave relationships. Sometimes I'm suggesting a woman leave her lover. Sometimes, though less often, I'm suggesting a man leave his lover. Sometimes we're talking about leaving parents, or roommate situations. The main issue for me is, "Are you afraid to go home?" If a person is always flinching from physical or emotional bullying, but defines "fear" very narrowly (as in immediate expectation of being murdered), it can be surprisingly hard to recognize being afraid to go home.

I think intimidation is more likely in situations where money is very tight, especially after money has been tight for a long time. Financial dependence makes people dependent in other ways, limits their options. Someone once said to me, "I hate the way my mother treats me, but living with her is the only way I can afford to finish school." With more money, it would have been feasible to move out, or to enforce boundaries (do that again and I'm leaving.) There are also situations that might look like there's intimidation involved, even if there really isn't...a woman with no money, persistantly complaining about how unhappy she is in a relationship, appears to be at high risk, from this distance.

Most folks on my friends list post about their relationships. I can think of three women in particular who post about their husbands (and, if you're not sure if I'm talking about you, feel free to email me and ask), who tend to get comments talking about what bums their husbands are, and how they should just up and leave and get rid of the bum. (And, interestingly, it's only women to whom this happens.)

As I'm sure you can imagine, this does NOT make those women happy.

How sure are you that those women are unhappy about it? Back in 1995-6, maybe as early as 1994, people who cared about me were giving me online advice to leave my partner. That made me confused and troubled. To a first approximation, the more astute the advice, the more it troubled me. It wasn't the advice that was making me unhappy. It was the *relationship* that was making me unhappy.

Now, one of the things which bothers me about this is that I see myself in all three husbands. I do many of the same things that all three of these "bums" do. And yet Lis assures me that she gets very few of those comments to her blog.

There's a big difference between Lis and the sort of person I tend to worry is in a toxic or abusive relationship and needs to be helped out of it -- Lis does not seem to be persistently unhappy. She isn't complaining about you all the time. She complains of you occasionally, and in between times she writes of how happy she is with you. I suspect most readers of her blog are sufficiently regular readers to see that pattern.

[gingicat]

People were suggesting that I leave my emotionally supportive, caring, sharing husband because he wasn't gainfully employed, and because I let myself whine about his not doing chores in a timely fashion. These people were decidedly blowing things out of proportion.

I don't complain in my LJ any more.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

I think the big difference is the kids. Because once one has kids with another person, the stakes are much higher, and if that person is being irresponsible** it's hard for outsiders to not say, "You should leave hir." This even though single parenting is *damn hard*, because a person whose partner who contributes little but harm and heartbreak is probably better off without them.

Actually, once people have kids, unless one parent is actively harming the other, or the children, I tend to keep my mouth shut. But if someone is contemplating having a child with someone who does not seem like good parent material, if I have the opportunity, I'll say something. E.g. don't have a kid with someone who has unmet child support obligations for previous kids; that's just asking for trouble! It usually doesn't go over very well.

The core value at the center of this is that *children do not choose their parents; parents choose them*. And this is a crucial choice.

At the same time, if a person has kids with someone, they should realize that they are essentially partnered for as long as the kids are minors, whether they "Stay together" as a couple or not. One will have to deal with the hated evil ex around child support and visitation issues, even if the evil ex has gone AWOL.

**Irresponsible can be defined in many ways. I try very hard to avoid making judgments by gender, but it's not easy. The man does not *have* to be the breadwinner in a family -- if he's taking on major childcare and household responsibilities, and his partner is earning enough to support them all. And vice versa for a woman. (And of course I am assuming heterosexual pairings here, bleah.)

As far as the gender difference, I do think women are more likely to share their problems. I rarely hear of a man's problems with his partner until the relationship is unsalvageable. Sometimes a woman is just blowing off steam about little things, and other times she's not.

about how women and men process...

[(Anonymous)]

Now this comes from a previous generation, so take this for what it's worth, but in the case of our own family, there have been times when I have walked into a room where your mother and her sisters were discussing extremely intimate details of their respective relationships, something that none of the husbands would dream of discussing with their brothers. In other words, maybe it is a stereotypical gender difference in what is considered a matter for discussion?