Car troubles: advice please?

[xiphias]

So, the garage just told us that we likely need a new oil pump in our car. They're estimating somewhere around $2,000 in work.

It's a 2000 Toyota Camry with around 110,000 miles on it.

We're trying to figure out whether it's worth repairing, or if it's time to get a new (to us) car.

Usually, this would be a no-brainer -- Camrys are really reliable, usually, and 110,000 isn't a whole lot of miles on a Toyota. And this one has a new transmission because we replaced it last year. And brand-new tires which were just put in last week.

But, see -- new transmission, new tires -- if we do this work, it'll mean we've put $6,000 in the car in the past year. Given that we paid $6000 for the car to start with, that seems . . . well, it's time to ask whether we want to repair it or not.

As my mother pointed out, that's two major things in the four years we've owned it. As reliable as Camrys usually, are, it suggests that there may be something off with THIS one. . .

Any advice from y'all?

Comments

[lietya.livejournal.com]

A 2000 Camry with 110K miles shouldn't be needing that kind of work. I'd say that the suspicion that "something is off with THIS one" is correct. (By contrast, our 1993 Camry with 200K averages about $500/year in maintenance work, all of it stuff you'd expect - new battery, replacement of the original 5-year-expected-lifespan axles at 12 years old, etc. In the entire life of this car, nobody's paid $2000 in repairs at one sitting, unless we count that time it was smushed by an 18-wheeler [that was about 10 years ago, too!].) Do you trust your mechanic to tell you if the car's likely to throw any new problems soon? Because $2000 more to keep it running 10 more years (which wouldn't be unreasonable to ask of a 6-year-old Toyota) is fine; $2000 so it can need $2000 *more* in another year is not. Honestly, I kind of think the latter is more likely....

and you might want to look into the sort of used Toyota you can get for $2000 instead. (Or not. I couldn't really blame you if you were soured on Toyota, though I do think you got incredibly unlucky and this is very atypical.)

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

Do a google search on "Camry oil sludge". Really. This is a known problem on Camrys.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

It is, if you'll forgive me, also a known favorite complaint of trolls in certain circles. (I'm NOT calling you one, just saying that it somewhat obscures the actual frequency of occurrence of this problem when one goes looking.)

Consumer Reports calls the problem rate "very low" and limited to Camrys from 1997-2001. I won't argue with you that that might be the case with this particular car, as it's quite plausible. I just wouldn't necessarily never touch Toyota again for this reason alone. (It's also [equally infrequently] a problem in Audi/Volkswagen, Dodge/Chrysler, and Saab, but Toyota always gets the press for it for some reason.) Oil sludge also doesn't explain all the other problems in this car - it smells generally lemon-y to me, honestly.

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

...I don't know about Consumer Reports, anymore. I don't trust them when it comes to reviewing cars. I know this makes me sound like a crank, but they gush so much about Hondas and Toyotas, and slag GM products so much, that I've suspected editorial bias on their part for years. I don't think they've ever fully forgiven GM for the Corvair, nor Ford for the Pinto. It seems that stuff that GM and Ford get raked over the coals for, gets a pass when Honda or Toyota does it.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

You may be right. I've noticed the same thing, although I also have noticed that Honda and Toyota DO have fewer problems overall (so I wonder if it's not specifically a bias towards *them* as towards vehicles which "cause them less trouble" in terms of having fewer issues).

(On the other hand, I'll take sludge over vehicles which randomly burst into flames, a problem Ford has recently re-developed. :) )

I cited them only because they're a recognizable name; most other sources appear to agree that it's a problem from 1996/7-2001 and that it's not something which crops up with great frequency. I *do* at least trust their data, with the usual caveat that it relies on self-reporting.

I do think we're coming to the same conclusion here, though : this car's probably not as reliable as its brand and age would suggest.

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

Are you referring to the Crown Vics that explode when struck in the rear, or the Fords that catch fire while parked due to a faulty ignition switch? :-) (The annoying thing was that when the police officers' unions complained about the exploding Crown Vics, Ford retrofitted the police-service cars with a gas tank shield, but not the civilian cars. Bleh!)

With the huge number of Camrys in the road fleet (they've been the #1 most popular car in the US for some time, in a 3-way race with the Accord and the Taurus), even a 1% incidence of oil sludge means a lot of vehicles, and a lot of complaining vehicle owners.

And yes, the number of problems with this car really suggests it's either a "Monday car", was abused in its previous life, or was in an accident.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

I was thinking of that most recent ignition-switch issue, but the Crown Vic problem was a memorable one too. (I didn't know that about the civilian cars - good grief, you'd think exploding customers would eventually be a problem!)

It's true, even a low-occurrence problem is going to inconvenience and distress a lot of people when we're talking the kind of numbers Toyota puts on the road.

I guess we got lucky that our two Camrys neatly bracket the problem years - 1993 and 2004, respectively. :)

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

Ford's position is that vehicles in police service are a lot more likely to be involved in a high-speed collision.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

Which is doubtless true, but a bit.... cold-blooded.

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

Insert Fight Club quote. :-/

[felis-sidus.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth... The way Consumer Reports comes up with their reliability ratings is to survey their subscribers regarding actual frequency of repair on cars the subscribers actually own. It's a pretty basic numbers game as opposed to an opinion poll. Overall, I've noticed that the more expensive models tend to be rated lower in reliability. I suspect this may be because they have more "bells and whistles", and therefore more opportunity to have things go wrong.

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

There's also a difference between an electrical fault that means the light in the ashtray goes out, and an alternator that fries at 21,000 miles and leaves you in a shopping mall parking lot waiting for the tow truck. Both of those get filed under "electrical" without regard to severity. I'd really love to see them rate cars according to "show-stopper" problems: ones that result in the car needing a tow, or failing inspection, or lighting the "CHECK ENGINE" lamp on the dashboard. Those kind of problems are a lot more serious.

Forests and Trees

[(Anonymous)]

May not be the car at all. Camry's are pretty reliable transportation. Could also be the mechanic ...

[ykats.livejournal.com]

So, you bought a 2 year old Camry for $6K? That sounds way too cheap to me. There must've been something wrong with that car.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

It was at an auction in Florida -- the place where the used car dealers get THEIR cars.

[unquietsoul5.livejournal.com]

Well I'm no an expert on cars, and the person I used to depend on for information about such has been gone for some time now (My grandfather was a professional mechanic for many many years).

That said, I know that he often said that if you had to put as much into the car as you bought it for in repairs, and it's less than a decade old, then it wasn't a bargain.

Either that particular make, model and year was a bad one, or this one has been thru something that you don't know about before you bought it. Either way, it may be time to look elsewhere for transport.

With transmission and fuel pump problems both showing up, one has to ask how the electrics are acting, whether it's ever had some 'odd smells' and whether it's gas milage is up to snuff. Could be it's got a lot more miles on it than you believe, and is suffering from a lot of wear, or it could be water/flood damage that's been covered up. (Not impossible in FL to say the least).

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It really sounds like someone put lipstick and a prom dress on a pig.

Generally, two year old cars don't make it to auction, unless they're part of an estate sale or something. If this car got traded to a Toyota dealer, he'd have it detailed, do any needed repairs to it, and put it on his lot with a warranty or "Certified Pre-Owned" or summat. If it got traded in at, say, a Chevy dealer, he'd sell it at wholesale to his buddy across town who runs a Toyota dealership, perhaps in part exchange for this very nice two year old Chevy SUV that just got traded in. Or he might just try to sell it himself, out of the "used" end of the lot.

The exception to this is "fleet sale" cars like rentals. It's why a 2yo Crown Vic is worth less than half of a new one--it's because so many ex-rentals hit the used-car market at that age. And ex-rentals or ex-corporate-fleet cars generally get sold at auction.

So for this car to go to auction, it'd' almost have to have been something with a bad history. Anyone with access to CarFax want to run the VIN through it? I had a Carfax account when I was car-shopping back in december but I let it expire.

Assumptions

[(Anonymous)]

FWIW this was a fleet sale, and vehicles sell at Florida auction for anywhere from 2 - 4,000 less than the same vehicle up north. Gotta know how to buy em.

[momomom.livejournal.com]

Well, it's also very little of the original car left. We always try to project "does the cost of repair exceed the cost of new car payments?". And do you still have car payments. Ack, selling a car and still owing on it is the worst!

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

We never have car payments: we pay full cash down on a used car.

[yardlong.livejournal.com]

I had a 1992 Camry, with only 83,000 miles on it. It needed some repairs, and I'd just put on new tires, but the deciding factor was that the air conditioning didn't work in addition to the other problems. Air conditioning is expensive to fix and fixing it is an opportunity to screw something else up, so we sold the car, got a 2000 Ford Escort, and are happy with it. The gas mileage is better too.

I think you've put enough money into your Camry already, especially considering that it's not that old. Also, it is pretty easy to sell a Camry due to the ingrained notions people tend to have about them. Really, the notions override what they see in front of them.

We don't do car payments either :)

[any-contingency.livejournal.com]

Okay, devil's advocate time. The trans. is really the only unusual major repair, and it went because the drive way wasn't plowed, or salted, or sanded, and you tried to get out anyway. Spin the tires long enough, and the tranny will blow. guaranteed. As I recall, it had to be replaced again afterward for the same reason. One question, how many times have you fallen behind on oil changes, Ian? I love you man, and don't mean to be rude, but I see the problems here as expected given the life this car has led.

[cheshyre]

One question for you: What's your opinion of Tremont St. Garage? their competency, their prices, etcetera?

[cogitationitis.livejournal.com]

The tires are an expected repair, so I'd discount them. The oil pump depends, in large part, on how well you've done basic maintainence. The transmission is the same. Both would also be put under stress by hauling heavy loads or bad driving (spinning the tires, peeling out, heavy city driving).

Really, the more important question is which you can afford more: a new car, or a new pump? Also, how will you be unloading your damaged car?

[felis-sidus.livejournal.com]

Ditto what most people have said. I wouldn't expect a 2000 Camry which has had regular maintenance and has been driven under normal street conditions to be in quite such bad shape, although it does have a lot of miles on it.

By regular maintenance, I mean that the car's been taken to a qualified mechanic at least twice a year for an overall checkup, routine maintenance, and preparation for the particular season ahead (winterizing/summerizing). (For all you do-it-yourselfers out there: I intend no slur. If you know what you're doing, great. Personally, I'd end up emptying the old oil on my head, and I don't know a bearing from a belt, so I go to a mechanic.) If the car's led a hard life, you should consider whether or not that will change. If it won't change, then the car's likely to keep having serious problems.

Just as a point of comparison, I have a 2000 Chevy Prizm with a Corolla engine. It's only got 40 - 50 thousand miles on it, has a nice warm garage to sleep in, and goes to the mechanic twice a year for routine care. In the 3 years I've had it, it hasn't needed anything other than routine maintenance.

Car Talk

[(Anonymous)]

ummmm you have a 100,000 miles on a FIVE YEAR OLD CAR ???? That's pretty high mileage, and you don't do road trips! Before making a decision to spend that kind of money, all other things being equal, better check out the value of the vehicle that you're thinking about plowing that kind of money into. Look at Kelley Blue Book and some of the other Auto sites to see what a 2,000 high mileage Camry is actually worth. If you're having that kind of trouble already, you either need to look at your driving habits, or find another vehicle. BTW replacing a fuel pump doesn't cost any $2k, even in Boston

Re: Car Talk

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

We normally put 20,000+ miles a year on our car. Even just shooting around Boston. Anyway, that figure is for an oil pump, timing belt, water pump, and a couple other things that are all due -- not just the pump alone.

[(Anonymous)]

May I suggest a second opinion on all the repairs. Perhaps from a dealer.