Citizenship idea
Dec. 26th, 2003 11:28 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
xiphiasMy father-in-law has mentioned that the questions he had to answer in 1950 when he took his citizenship test were a lot more difficult that the ones in the 1990 version.
I've always thought that it would be an interesting idea to make it so that the ONLY way you could get citizenship was through naturalization. No automatic citizenship because your parents are citizens, or because you're born in the country.
Some time after your eighteenth birthday, you'd have to take a citizenship test in order to become a citizen. If you passed, you'd have to take a citizenship oath or affirmation. Everybody would. (As it is now, I think you can become a citizen before your eighteenth birthday, but I'd like to restrict it so that everyone would have to be eighteen before taking the oath -- I don't think it's fair to expect most little kids to understand an oath.)
You could have citizenship classes in the high schools; you could have big proctored citizenship tests in the schools, like we do the SATs. But I'd probably make the citizenship classes OPTIONAL, and passing the citizenship test would NOT be a requrement for graduation.
You'd have to register for the Selective Service whether you were a citizen or a resident -- that wouldn't change. (Whether having a draft at all is a good idea, or even constitutional, is a different argument.) You'd have to pay the same taxes either way, you'd have the same rights to a lawyer, jury trial, due process, and so forth, whether you were a citizen or not. But you'd only be able to vote, serve on a jury, or serve in elected office, if you were a citizen.
I'd probably make it illegal to discriminate against anybody in hiring or housing or so forth on basis of citizenship. And I'd make it harder to get out of jury duty for any reason except medical hardship. So there would be a cost to being a citizen: you'd have a chance of having to serve on a jury, which would mean that there would be a reason to NOT become a citizen.
If you failed the citizenship test when you were eighteen, or just didn't bother with it, you could take the classes and the test and the oath or affirmation at any time later.
I'd make the citizenship test be reasonably comprehensive -- not incredibly difficult or anything, but you'd have to know something about the way the judicial system works, presumption of innocence, what juries are and why they are, and so forth. You'd probably have to get like an 80% or something to pass -- you could miss a couple questions and still get it.
Anyway, if my father-in-law happens to read this, I'd be really interested if you remember any of the citizenship questions you had to answer. . .
I've always thought that it would be an interesting idea to make it so that the ONLY way you could get citizenship was through naturalization. No automatic citizenship because your parents are citizens, or because you're born in the country.
Some time after your eighteenth birthday, you'd have to take a citizenship test in order to become a citizen. If you passed, you'd have to take a citizenship oath or affirmation. Everybody would. (As it is now, I think you can become a citizen before your eighteenth birthday, but I'd like to restrict it so that everyone would have to be eighteen before taking the oath -- I don't think it's fair to expect most little kids to understand an oath.)
You could have citizenship classes in the high schools; you could have big proctored citizenship tests in the schools, like we do the SATs. But I'd probably make the citizenship classes OPTIONAL, and passing the citizenship test would NOT be a requrement for graduation.
You'd have to register for the Selective Service whether you were a citizen or a resident -- that wouldn't change. (Whether having a draft at all is a good idea, or even constitutional, is a different argument.) You'd have to pay the same taxes either way, you'd have the same rights to a lawyer, jury trial, due process, and so forth, whether you were a citizen or not. But you'd only be able to vote, serve on a jury, or serve in elected office, if you were a citizen.
I'd probably make it illegal to discriminate against anybody in hiring or housing or so forth on basis of citizenship. And I'd make it harder to get out of jury duty for any reason except medical hardship. So there would be a cost to being a citizen: you'd have a chance of having to serve on a jury, which would mean that there would be a reason to NOT become a citizen.
If you failed the citizenship test when you were eighteen, or just didn't bother with it, you could take the classes and the test and the oath or affirmation at any time later.
I'd make the citizenship test be reasonably comprehensive -- not incredibly difficult or anything, but you'd have to know something about the way the judicial system works, presumption of innocence, what juries are and why they are, and so forth. You'd probably have to get like an 80% or something to pass -- you could miss a couple questions and still get it.
Anyway, if my father-in-law happens to read this, I'd be really interested if you remember any of the citizenship questions you had to answer. . .
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(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 08:58 am (UTC)I do like forcing everyone to have at least some semblance of clue. I hate those Trivial Persuit ads that try to make it amusing rather than horrible that X % of people can't even tell you how many Supreme Court justices there are, but they can tell you how many Spice Girls.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 09:03 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 09:01 am (UTC)I don't trust the government to make up a citizenship test. (We'd probably have a movement to make sure that the test included one question to which the correct answer was "Marriage is relationship between one man and one woman for the purposes of procreation.")
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 09:12 am (UTC)Saying that, what about jsut using the same test and study materials as for new citizens?
Things like how many representatives, how old must they be, which amendment is what, etc.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 09:17 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 09:23 am (UTC)very interesting ideas. i have often thought along similar lines as to reproduction. i mean, yeah, the ideas are scary and i would never actually go for them, but i am sometimes struck by the unfairness of the fact that we have to have a lisence to drive a car, but not to have a child. and unmarried 14 year old heroin addicts can have babies no prob, but double income lovingly-committed gay couples? more like jumping through hoops of fire.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 09:28 am (UTC)That gets too close to eugenics for my comfort.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 10:15 am (UTC)Testing, testing ...
Date: 2003-12-26 10:36 am (UTC)I actually have the complete test here (somewhere). Just can't put my hands on it on short notice. However, the questions (and you had to answer 95% of the questions asked or you failed) dealt with our type of government (how many Representatives, Senators, etc., their terms of office) the Constitition, the Bill of Rights
I actually have the complete test here (somewhere). Just can't put my hands on it on short notice. However, the questions (and you had to answer 95% of the questions asked or you failed) dealt with our type of government (how many Representatives, Senators, etc., their terms of office) the Constitition, the Bill of Rights <remember them?> and other foundations of American government. The questions were VERY detailed and required much more knowledge of our country and how it works than most current people could answer. AND it was a requirement of any immigrant seeking citizenship status once they have resided in this country at least five years.
Now, on to other fun tests. I dug out some old school textbooks. See how you fare with questions such as these.
From Ray's Rudiments of Arithmetic (1866) "This work has been prepared with a view to meeting the wants of the primary and intermediate departments of large graded schools. The author has also sought to furnish a small simple, and cheap class-book adapted to the requirements of pupils commencing the study of Practical Arithmetic in the common schools of the country, as well as the graded schools of the larger towns and cities." Sample questions from some of the chapters (BTW NO computers or calculators, please!) --
Addition:
90. An army consists of 6450 cavalry, 27846 artillery, and 270874 more infantry than both cavalry and artillery: How many men in the army?
Multiplication:
9. Frank can throw a stone 6 yards, his father can throw one 5 times a far: How far can he throw?
53. Find the cube of 376, of 567, 968, 467, 888.
62. Multiply 6800007 by 42008, by 4050607
103. If a man earns $11 a week, how much more will 84 men earn in 69 weeks, than 27 men will in 53 weeks?
104. Sold 540 acres of land at $108 an acre, and with the proceeds bought 23 horses at $95 each, 13 mules at $76 each, and 396 sheep at $3 each, and paid the balance for the farm: what did the farm cost?
Multiplication of US Money:
18. Two men bought cattle; one bought 31, at $93.725 each; the other 71, at $87.67 each: which one expended the most money, and how much?
23. A merchant purchased 8 bales of cloth, each containing 72 yards, at $4.125 a yard: how much did it cost?
24. If it costs $2.005 to carry 1 ton 1 mile, how much will it cost to carry 17 tons 307 miles?
Reduction of Compound Numbers:
20. (this one's for you, Ian) How many kegs, each containing 15 gal. 3 qt., can be filled from 18 hhd. 4 gal. 2 qt of beer?
25. (this one's for Lis) Find the cost of 5 reams of paper at 5 mills a sheet.
28. How much time will a man gain in 40 years of 365 days each, by rising 25 minutes earlier each day?
Decimal Fractions:
16. A merchant sold 12.5 lbs of coffee at $.40 a pound, 6.25 lb. of tea at $2.12 a pound, 2.75 lb. of candles at $.26 a pound, and .375 gal of oil at $2.00 a gallon; he received in exchange butter at $.40 a pound: how many pounds did he receive?
Last question in the book:
56. Bought a hogshead of molasses, containing 90 gallons, for $45; 8 gallons leaked out: at what price per gallon shall I sell the remainder to gain $3.38?
Remember, this is an ELEMENTARY School Math Book. On to some easier questions. How about Geography? I'll make it easy and stick to North American Geography. From First Steps in Geography by Alexis Frye (Cambridge, 1906) "This book covers the work of two school years, either the fourth and fifth or the fifth and sixth":
What ocean is north of Alaska? What ocean is south of it? What sea is west of it?
Which is higher, the Eastern or Western highland? What plain is between these highlands?
Name the Great Lakes.
Name the outlet of the Great Lakes. In what lake does it have its source?
Name two ports on the Ohio River; two on the Mississippi River
Canada - Name two ports on the St Lawrence River
Why Laws are made - Why do laws make people pay taxes? If there were no taxes, what would happen in the town or city where you live?
Who make the laws? Who then really make the people pay for roads and schools?
Class dismissed.
Re: Testing, testing ...
Date: 2003-12-26 11:15 am (UTC)Re: Testing, testing ...
Date: 2003-12-26 11:43 am (UTC)See, 15 gal 3 qt is 63 qt. And a hogshead can be one of several different measurements, but the most likely one is 63 gal. So you can fill exactly 4 kegs from every hhd, and 4 gal 2 qt isn't enough to make another keg, and, since this is a question that requires an integer answer, you can just ignore that last bit.
So the answer is 18x4 kegs, or 9x8 kegs, which is 72 kegs.
Re: Testing, testing ...
Date: 2003-12-26 11:56 am (UTC)Re: Testing, testing ...
Date: 2003-12-26 11:59 am (UTC)how about the rest of them?
Re: Testing, testing ...
Date: 2003-12-26 12:17 pm (UTC)Re: Testing, testing ...
Date: 2003-12-26 05:03 pm (UTC)Where did you see that the answer required an integer? The problem looks for the reduction of a fraction, but never states you are allowed to round off. Back to school with ye ...
Re: Testing, testing ...
Date: 2003-12-26 08:07 pm (UTC)Re: Testing, testing ...
Date: 2003-12-27 10:34 pm (UTC)It's been a while, but I'm not convinced these math problems would particularly challenge a sufficiently motivated student of passing intelligence in one of the higher elementary-school grades, at least as of ten years ago when I was in them myself. They contain a lot of numbers, but you're not really required to do anything notably difficult with them (aside from remembering how many gallons there are in a hogshead); it becomes a matter more of making sure you don't misplace the pounds of coffee, or screw up the columns in your long multiplication -- a bookkeeping exercise -- than of complex math.
As for the geography questions, for the most part they're quite beyond me -- because I haven't crammed for a geography test recently, and no port on the Mississippi River has ever been remotely relevant to my day-to-day existence. Most students who passed this test would probably not be able to accurately answer those questions a year later without some kind of refresher. They look very telling, but they aren't really.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 12:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 12:35 pm (UTC)1. Who was the first President of the United States?
Abraham Lincoln
George W. Bush
George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
2. What are the duties of Congress?
To execute laws
To naturalize citizens
To sign bills into law
To make laws
3. Who helped the Pilgrims in America?
Christopher Columbus
George Washington
The American Indians ( Native Americans )
Southern plantation owners
4. What is the introduction to the Constitution called?
The Bill of Rights
The Articles of the Confederation
The Preamble
The Declaration of Independence
5. What are the two major political parties in the U.S.?
The House of Representatives and the Senate
The President and Vice President
Democratic and Republican
Congress and the Supreme Court
My personal favorite answer to Question #5 is B
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 12:47 pm (UTC)The first President of the United States was John Hanson. George Washington was the first President of the United States under the Constitution.
John Hanson served in 1781. He was followed by Elias Boudinot (1783), Thomas Mifflin (1784), Richard Henry Lee (1785), Nathan Gorman (1786), Arthur St. Clair (1787), and Cyrus Griffin (1788). The current Constitution was adopted in 1789, and George Washington served then.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-29 02:29 pm (UTC)People usually forget about the articles of confederation.
I, at least, am aware of what Shay's rebellion was (helps that I grew up near the location of it)...
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 12:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 05:09 pm (UTC)Wonder how many people can answer this one correctly:
5. Whose rights are guaranteed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?
Everyone ( citizens and non-citizens living in the U.S. )
Registered voters
The President
Natural born citizens
I'll bet if you posed this to the various talking heads, you'd get some very interesting spin in their responses. Only one obviously wrong answer there -- my guess is that you'll find people insisting that each of the other 3 options might be correct. Of course, if you emigrated from a monarchy then even number 3 could be plausible
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 02:48 pm (UTC)So how did he get to see both?
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 03:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-26 05:10 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-27 08:50 pm (UTC)But.. why? What would be the goal or purpose of this change? I know I'm missing something. There seems to me there are other things that SHOULD require tests, but don't.. like marriage and pregnancy, but of course, they can't figure out how to restrict that one as easily.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-27 09:03 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-28 12:46 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-28 01:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-28 02:19 pm (UTC)So the relationship looks wobbly to me.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-28 02:59 pm (UTC)I don't think children are citizens. That doesn't mean that children don't have rights -- but they can't be held responsible for contracts, and I consider citizenship to be a contract.
In the US, the vote is supposed to be restricted to citizens, but nobody checks the voter rolls to make sure that everyone voting is a citizen. I believe that municipalities can make their own rules about whether that applies for local elections, but I believe that generally, it does.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-12-29 12:48 pm (UTC)And those legal changes would be complicated and difficult. Which doesn't mean it's a bad idea - it's just something I didn't think you had considered, first.
But where is the incentive?
In order to swing this, I would give citizens tax cuts or maybe other privileges, BUT also make voting compulsory. Putting both a carrot and a stick into the system.
Re: But where is the incentive?
Date: 2003-12-28 02:53 pm (UTC)I want citizenship to be open to anyone who wants it, and has a certain basic inteligence -- but only to be given to people who want it.
Nice in principle
Date: 2003-12-28 03:59 pm (UTC)What I'm saying is, that while you do get rid of the vast majority of benign and stupid voters, you're still stuck with the malignant but smart ones, who will then have much more power. You seem to be betting on there being more people that will invest an interest because they care, than people who are selfish, but smart enough to pass the test.
You should want to increase the number of caring citizens, in the existing citizen pool, not make that pool smaller.
Re: Nice in principle
Date: 2003-12-28 04:08 pm (UTC)Large group manipulation tactics are easily scalable. Your contention seems to be that it's harder to manipulate a hundred million people than one million people. And it's not.
And if that million people is self-selected to take out some of the most ignorant, lazy, and selfish people, it will be harder to manipulate.
Re: But where is the incentive?
Date: 2003-12-28 02:58 pm (UTC)Re: But where is the incentive?
Date: 2003-12-28 03:04 pm (UTC)No