The future of Boston Cons:

[xiphias]

So:

This year, Arisia is in a smaller, and less-convenient venue than it has been in the past.

Boskone is now back in Boston, in a larger venue than it used to be.

Arisia has a membership cap this year, so it will be smaller than it has been in the past several years.

Boskone will be larger.

Do you think that Boskone and Arisia (and, for non-Bostonians who read Doc Smith -- yes, the names are deliberate) are going to re-coalesce into one con?

A Brief History:
So, Boskone was the Boston convention. Bos-Con --> Boskone. It got big and out of control. And by "out-of-control", I mean, it got to the point that riot squads and SWAT teams would have been a reasonable response. The next year after that, Boskone moved out of the city to the far suburbs, put a drastic membership cap on, and cut out everything but literary SF.

In response, Arisia was formed, which was in the city, and more open to all of fandom, and it became, over the years, a good, general con with media SF, literary SF, fantasy, roleplaying games, as well as a fair Goth contingent. And other stuff, too. With a few exceptions, it has traditionally been held at the Boston Park Plaza hotel, which is a big venue, centrally located and easy-to-get-to on public transit.

Boskone was way out in the suburbs, at a smaller venue that you couldn't get to without a car.

Boskone continued to focus on literary works -- it is a project of NESFA, the New England Science Fiction Association, which, as another major project of its, also has a small publishing house, focusing on commercially-not-really-that-viable-but-nonetheless-artistically-deserving reprints. It has been a fantastic con to go to if you just want to hang out with authors in a relatively low-key setting. And, in recent years, they've also been doing work with children's education -- helping develop literature curricula that involve science fiction and fantasy, to engage the imaginations of children, and interest them in science and creativity. As a side-effect of this, they've developed a neat sub-focus on YA and juvie authors -- Tammy Pierce is there most years, and Bruce Coville has been there more than a few times -- which means that they also have a large population of children and teenagers who are there to see their favorite authors.

This, incidentally, is a significant change, as Boskone used to have a reputation as being the "older, stodgier" con -- a con with an average age of mid-forties, and increasing a year every year. And, because of this population, they are beginning to add other things to their con -- anime, roleplaying games, media stuff.

So: it used to be that Boskone was:
1) Small
2) Difficult to get to
3) Purely literary
4) Middle-aged and getting older

None of these things are really very true any more.

Arisia was founded to be everything Boskone was not: it was designed to be open, large, diverse, young, vibrant, and easy-to-get-to. At its height, it was probably among the top five non-Worldcon cons in the United States. It is probably still in the top ten.

This year, it's smaller, more focused, and a bit harder to get to. We'll see what it feels like when we get there.

But, for the last several years, maybe a decade or so, I've been going to both cons, and I predict that they are both going to be moving closer together.

Many people on my friends list are far from convinced that this is a good thing -- and I see their point. I really like having a small, low-key con and a big freewheeling con. I think that's a lot better than having two middle-of-the-road cons.

But what if they rejoin? If the two cons come back together, could we have a large, freewheeling con with a low-key oasis in it? Would it be possible to create a single con with the benefits of both?

Comments

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

I was AT the Boskone-From-Hell. Ugh.

(And it's kind of funny that Arisia was at the Park Plaza. When I first started going to Boskone, that's where it was held. I haven't been to a Boskone since the first year in Springfield, though)

[quietann.livejournal.com]

I think it won't happen, as long as each group retains its leadership. Yes, there is more crossover now, but there's still some bad blood between the two sets.

My purely uninformed opinion, as an Arisia devotee who's married to the con (or at least one of the people running it): it may not survive. The hotel situation in Boston is such that an Arisia-style event is almost impossible to hold without having access to the Park Plaza. The Park Plaza may well look at their January 2007 financials and decide that Arisia is worth having around after all. One can hope...

Or, *if* the Boston Convention Center (which is as much of a wasteland right now as the new Arisia hotel is) likes Boskone and is open to hosting Arisia, that might work. They were not open to hosting Arisia earlier this year (e.g. they set the room rate at $189, which is too high and much higher than the Boskone rate, I suspect because Arisia has a certain reputation for sex stuff, which is not nearly as deserved as it once was.) But that would beg the question: why should there be two SF cons at the Boston Convention Center, one month apart?

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Heh. I, too, was at the Boskone from Hell (in fact, I was guarding the entrance to the Hucksters' Room most of the weekend) and I went to my first Boskone at the Park Plaza.

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

I know that someone (perhaps sfrose) has the text of The Letter online, but in googling around, I found this bit of fanhistory.

[filkerdave.livejournal.com]

I think it unlikely (despite having never been to Arisia and having last been to a Boskone in 1988, so I can't know how the groups intereact), based on the history I linked to above.

[ron_newman]

Why was Arisia moved?

[ron_newman]

Is Boskone at the Convention Center? I thought it was just at the hotel next to the center.

[metahacker.livejournal.com]

Having gone to my first Boskone last year, and not knowing any of that past baggage, I have to say that (other than #2, which is bupkis; the old Arisia location was a pain, the new one is a pain, the Boskone location is a pain) I completely agree. It *is* smaller, more literary, and definitely for an older cohort.

Personally I like having both, for different crowds. However, in my mind, the con to watch is Vericon -- which just keeps getting better, after starting very small. I wish it success -- I just wish the three weren't quite so close together in time!

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

So the Park Plaza was just being ornery about no longer wanting Arisia?

[gingicat]

Hotel didn't renew contract.

[gingicat]

I've actually decided to skip Arisia this year.

If the two do merge, then Readercon in the summer will be the small bookish Boston-area con. It's a lot of fun, actually.

I was on staff at the boskone from hell!!!

[fibro-witch.livejournal.com]

I don't beleive the two cons will merge.
I was also at the Boskone from hell, doing Registration. At about 10 pm on Saturday night, I ended up stuck with hotel security calling the parents of teenagers we found running around the hotel. Boskone was still doing it's on thing, and we were trying to get the ghosts out as quietly as possible.

I had if I remember correctly (and I no longer have my apa to double check) we found a large number of kids who's parents had dropped them off on Friday, and took off for the weekend. We had no choice but to call the police to turn over theses kids. When fen who live on the 'wild side' of life saw cops in the building they lost it.

Every one and their mother was in charge, and no one was in charge.

My feeling is Arisia needs this shrinkage, and it also needs to move to another time of year. I think there is a strong enough local fandom population to support two cons. Just not four weeks apart.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

yes. the reasons are mysterious, but it was not a good decision financially.

Elephant in the room.

[jadasc.livejournal.com]

Anime Boston may well eat both of them for lunch in a few years.

[adrian-turtle.livejournal.com]

Y'know, I don't think the critical aspects of Boskone's character are "old fans" or "venue is hard to reach." I think they're "focus on books" and "discourage wild parties with large groups of out-of-control drunks." The hordes of starry-eyed middle-schoolers following Tammy Pierce around are AVID readers, and none of them drink. I don't see a problem. (It would be nice if there were some parties at Boskone, though. [I wonder if there might be a slight, barely perceptible, interest, in a more specialized kind of party?] Last time I was there, it just seemed to stop after programming ended at 8 or 9, except for the open filk and a few people lingering to talk in the consuite. *sigh* Wiscon is my new con ideal, and I don't have enough energy for it.)

Arisia has a lot of focus on the masquerade, the art show, gaming, and music. Costumers, artists, gamers, and video enthusiasts have a lot more to interest them at Arisia than at Boskone. Boskone can become bigger -- it can go from a medium-sized book-focused con to a large book-focused con -- without acquiring any more focus on costuming. A friend of mine likes to go to Arisia, particularly because of the costuming and art, and the costuming things aimed at kids. Her kids can't really read yet. Boskone doesn't appeal to them the way it appeals to me.

Re: Elephant in the room.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

Agreed. It already is, actually. So long as the younger people are primarily focused on anime (as opposed to books, mainstream movies, gaming etc.) that will be the case. However, Arisia last year was big, so I don't know if they will fade just because there's an anime-focused con in town. They are serving different markets, which is not necessarily the case for Arisia vs. Boskone.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

You're correct although it's possible some convention center space will be used. That hotel doesn't have a lot of function space. But convention center function space is quite expensive.

[querldox.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, I don't think HRSFA's up to running a much larger Vericon (no offense intended to HRSFen; just a recognition of how much time it would take combined with an every few years complete turnover of concom constantly removing experience from it. As far as I know (and I am on the HRSFA mailing lists, although distance has prevented me from attending Vericons), Vericon is run and overwhelmingly staffed by current students, with little alumni/non-student involvement.

Re: I was on staff at the boskone from hell!!!

[querldox.livejournal.com]

But the problem with the dates is when one can get decent rates on space and hotel rooms in Boston, which is a more expensive than most city. Move into spring, summer, or fall, and you get much higher prices all around.

[ckd]

My first Boskone—my first con—was the Boskone From Hell.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

I don't remember getting a copy of The Letter, though I may have. I was 16 at the Boskone from Hell, so I was in the target demographic for The Letter. I definitely knew about it, though.

I went to two Springfield Boskones and then went off to Israel for the 1989-90 school year. I think I went to another Springfield one, but then I remember going to a bunch of Framingham ones before it moved back to Boston.

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

Yikes.

And yet you came back. I'm impressed.

[unquietsoul5.livejournal.com]

True, vericon is run 95% by students. I'm the only non-alum non-student involved in things, and only a tiny number of alum get involved. All the major board members are current students.

(I'm an outside volunteer working with the Consuite and food supply/operations for it primarily).

Last year we had 640 people at Vericon. Vericon only has access to so much space and a limited pool of volunteers to staff things, I doubt we could manage more than 750-1000 attendees just from a function space consideration.

[unquietsoul5.livejournal.com]

Actually as a gamer, I have to disagree with including gamers in the 'more to interest them at Arisia' statement. The gamers, and gaming related paneling, have been sidelines/marginalized more at the convention in recent years. As a gamer I've been concentrating on Vericon as my main venue as a gaming convention because of this.

[jenett]

It's interesting to read this, and ponder, as I moved to Minnesota a few years after the Minicon/Convergence split (Where Minicon got huge, [Stuff happened], Convergence emerged as the more media/Masquerade/gaming/plus book stuff con, and Minicon ended up being smaller and more literary focused.)

I say [Stuff happened] because, not being here, I've heard various comments on Stuff, but wasn't here for them, so it ends up being sort of black boxish for me.

My personal taste is honestly for the smaller and quieter - or maybe it's just that I actually *know* more people who go to Minicon, or who come specially for it from out of town, and so get better conversations and experiences and such out of it.

(This is helped by knowing elisem, and helping at her table, of course, which tends to get one randomly introduced to interesting people.)

What is amusing, though, is that both cons here have had the same venue for the last several years (what is affectionately referred to as "The once and future Radisson South", although it is not currently part of the Radisson chain, unless that's changed in the last month or three.) Said site is not in either Minneapolis or St. Paul, but accessible by shuttle from the airport, and not *horrible* by bus for people in the Cities on public transit. Mostly.

They just attract different numbers (Minicon has been between 500 and 600 recently, if I recall numbers right, Convergence somewhat larger, but not sure how much) and different crowds.

[liscarey.livejournal.com]

Ah, no. On both counts. The Convention Center is not being used. And the hotel has fantastic function space.

[liscarey.livejournal.com]

It would be nice if there were some parties at Boskone, though.

There are parties at Boskone. And yes, most of them are open.

[liscarey.livejournal.com]

I ran information at the Boskone From Hell. Don't want to go there again.

And no, I don't see any way to have Boskone and Arisia going on in the same space at the same time.

Re: I was on staff at the boskone from hell!!!

[undauntra.livejournal.com]

Winter cons have a definite advantage in the lower level of "con funk", too. After years of Arisia, I went to a Dragon*Con (Atlanta in summer) and was astonished at the ambient reek.

[madfilkentist]

Here it is.

I attended Boskone 24 as a day member, but wasn't really active in fandom till 1989.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Hunh.

To me, that doesn't actually sound all that hostile.

[liscarey.livejournal.com]

To respond in a more coherent and complete way than I did earlier:

One of the things you're overlooking is the difference in culture between the two groups. We're not organized the same way, we don't work in the same way, and we don't want the same things in the conventions we run. And most specifically and most relevantly: most of the people working on Boskone don't want to be part of running "a large, freewheeling con." We've done that; it ended in The Boskone From Hell, in our being blackballed at every hotel in greater Boston and very nearly every hotel in New England that could hold us, and in our being vilified for years for changes and decisions that we made only because the alternative was no convention at all.

We didn't spend those years out in Springfield because we wanted to run a convention inconveniently far away from our base of operations. We spent those years in Springfield because we could not get another hotel in Massachusetts. We very nearly couldn't get another hotel in New England; the only alternative willing to talk to us was in Hartford.

When Arisia formed, they were able to get a hotel in Boston because they were not NESFA and didn't have our history with the Boston hotels. It was several years before we were able to move even as far in as Framingham.

And I haven't even talked about how burnt out we all were, by the time the Big Boskones were killed by their own growth. We really, really, don't want to go there again. A little modest growth, cautiously experimenting with things that add interest and excitement to Boskone while keeping it the kind of convention we want to work on, that's good. Merging with a significantly different kind of convention run by people with different ideas of the kind of convention they want to work on, not so good. For either group.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Oh, good.

I'd rather go to two distinct conventions. I like them both for different reasons.

[querldox.livejournal.com]

Bits which were considered hostile:

No one under 18 years of age will be admitted without a parent or guardian. If you are under 18, please see the paragraph on the back entitled ``Age Restrictions.''

Despite the additional clarification later on that kids who'd worked on Boskone or major cons, or were members of an established sf club didn't fall under this, there was a fair amount of yelling about how it was evil to keep kids out. Probably not necessary in retrospect given the move to Springfield removing easy access to the con location.

We do not want people wearing hall costumes at Boskone. No awards will be given for hall costumes. No weapons may be brought into public areas at Boskone. We are defining staffs and chains as weapons, as well as swords, and toy ray guns.

You fascists! How dare you tell me what I can and cannot wear! And NESFA's a bunch of fuddy-duddys who wouldn't know about how it's fun to be in a costume!

Program and activities at the convention will be focused on written science fiction, SF art, fandom, and science. Main program will probably shrink from 6 tracks to 3, with fewer rooms for discussion groups and no programming after midnight. We won't have a game room. There won't be a separate film program; a few films may be integrated into the main program.

NESFA hates media fans! How dare you take away the parts of the convention that I like best, just because you're doing the work to put on the con! You're turning my annual party into a boring weekend!

[quietann.livejournal.com]

thanks for the corrections... and it does turn out that I was confusing the Convention Center hotel with another location that was discussed as possible for Arisia.

Re: I was on staff at the boskone from hell!!!

[quietann.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Room rates are higher, and hotel availability, which is already limited, is much lower. One of the reasons the Park Plaza worked nicely for Arisia is that their occupancy rate on a January weekend was well below 50% (I have heard as low as 30% but don't quote me on it), so the promise of Arisia showing up and *filling* the hotel made the beancounters smile.

[voltbang.livejournal.com]

I can't comment on the whole split between the two cons and all, but I wanted to mention, I'll be at arisia. Maybe we can say hi. I hate going to a convention and not knowing enough people to get my social push start.

My ideal convention might have to be gencon. My first was two years ago and I'm still in the honeymoon phase. Not enough hours in the day to do all I want to do there. This year we will be doing our travelling on the day before and the day after, not the first and last day. That will be a first for me. While I haven't bumped into the wild parties there, I haven't had the knack for finding the wild parties for some years now. Really not since the wild party that destroyed the hotel that housed disclave. If I could find those, I would want to do so while not at gencon, really. And while it would be nice if I knew more people at gencon, that's part of what I like, I don't have to know the people. We have games, and that provides the introduction, and the context.

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

We didn't spend those years out in Springfield because we wanted to run a convention inconveniently far away from our base of operations. We spent those years in Springfield because we could not get another hotel in Massachusetts.

You know, I did not know that. Every time I've heard about the big debacle, it was presented in terms as if Boskone specifically chose to leave Boston.

[liscarey.livejournal.com]

You know, I did not know that. Every time I've heard about the big debacle, it was presented in terms as if Boskone specifically chose to leave Boston.

Prior to the Boskone From Hell, we talked about finding a smaller, suburban hotel and downsizing Boskone a bit. The thing is, we talked about it the way people talk about losing weight, or quitting smoking, or getting more exercise. We could've given a dissertation on why it was the right thing to do--but nobody was doing anything about it, or really wanted to, even though the big Boskones were killing us.

AFTER the Boskone From Hell, no hotels would talk to us except Hartford and Springfield--neither of which was what we'd meant by "suburban"! And even they had conditions--some which showed up in The Letter. The age restriction in particular was a product of hotel demands, and we created as many loopholes in it as we could slide by the hotels. And everything was perceived by many fans as free, deliberate, malicious action on NESFA's part.

And so the end result was that we wound up too far from our base to be practical or comfortable, running a convention that was less than a quarter the size (maybe even a fifth of the size, if you count the ghosts) of the old Big Boskones. Very much not what we'd have chosen.

(The truly self-punishing can ask me about my theory of how this led to the rise of NESFA Press as a significant entity.)

[liscarey.livejournal.com]

So you can see why we were surprised by the reaction.:)

Honestly, in retrospect, many NESFen can see how The Letter was read the way it was read. We were trying to be clear about what changes we were making, and why, and to be completely fair to everyone involved, so that people who wouldn't enjoy the con we were going to be able to run would not come and be disappointed. But what we sent out--well, at Boskone 43, in commenting on the press releases we sent out to publicize the con, with startlingly good results, someone very friendly to NESFA and Boskone said, "My God! NESFA's found someone who can do tone!"

Having the best and friendliest intentions can all come to naught, if you don't do tone well.:(

[agharta75.livejournal.com]

Maybe they don't like goths?

[quietann.livejournal.com]

Not going to deny that but... Gaming at Arisia needs someone *proactive* running it, and such a person has been hard to find. This year's guy is proactive (and very good friends with one of the heads of Programming, which helps) -- but *everything* is getting downsized this year because of the reduced amount of space at the new hotel. See http://2007.arisia.org/PESchedule/ and scroll down for info; from my point of view, there's quite a bit there.

It's also a matter of Arisia having a little bit of everything, so no particular kind of event gets precedence over any other. That makes it less of a con for "specialists" (e.g. people only into gaming, or films, or whatever) but more social for everyone.

Arisia

[unquietsoul5.livejournal.com]

No argument there that it needs someone who is proactive and has some connections with programming. I have not done Arisia myself the last few years, the last time I did I barely had 3 gaming related panels to sit on (I think there were 5 on the entire schedule by the time they finished weeding us down from an initial list that year of 15 or 20 to choose from.... and I was involved in discussions with the person in charge of that part of programming up until 2 months before the convention when they suddenly stopped all communication with us thru the email list that had been set up for it).

I did hear plenty of folks complaining who went to last years and the "squish open gaming into panel rooms" thing they did.

Looking at the list you've pointed at I see 3 tabletop rpg related panels, 4 LARP related panels, 1 Computer game related and 1 board game related panel. That's pretty slim.

Yes there's a lot of "Demos" and three Camarilla LARPS running (or is that 3 rooms for a single LARP, hard to tell the way it's written). Most of the Demos are board games or CCGs, with a single game each of the rpgs Call of Cthuhlu, D&D and a Changeling game. There's no mention if they are going to be in one big room, a big room with a few small ones for the rpgs or what really on the website.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

Of all the entries of your most recent 20, this got the most comments. *giggles fondly*

[ckd]

But, for many years, not to Boskone. This was not, actually, because of The Letter so much as The Logistics; it was easier to get to Lunacon for the next few years, since with a bit of changing I could get from Boston to NYC to Tarrytown on a series of train/subway rides.

The age restriction would have hit me had the logistics not made it irrelevant, and I did (IIRC) talk to Jim and Laurie about my feelings about it when I met them at Lunacon; they made it clear that it wasn't intended to block people like me (though BU didn't have a formal SF club at the time) and that helped me understand the situation better.

So it was Boskone, a few Lunacons, Noreascon 3, and then some years gafiated in the wilderness (with occasional Boskone/Lunacon/Arisia visits) until Boskone moved back into range and I started going to cons more consistently again.

[wildcard9.livejournal.com]

I think Boston needs MORE sci-fi cons, not less. Boston only has 3 cons as it is (Arisia, Boskone, and the new AnimeBoston). Combining two of them into one con would be bad for fans. Why are there no cons in Boston between mid-April and mid-January? All 3 Boston cons occur within a 90 day period. There should be a con in the fall as well.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Largely, room rates and function space. All the cons are in the three months of the off-season. Summer? Main tourist seasons. Fall? Nuthin' doing -- school-related stuff has got everything locked up.

We've got January, February, and March. April, you're starting tourist season, really right through September, when you get a bit of leaf-tourism, then school related stuff, then holiday stuff.

I got a couple emails a week or two ago from the bartending temp agencies I work for, saying, basically, now would be a good time to move in with your parents for a couple months if you were planning on paying rent with any bartending gigs, because there aren't any.

That's why stuff happens now -- it's cheap because nobody else is doing anything.

[anisosynchronic.livejournal.com]

I and one other person bitched openly about the tone of the letter all those years ago at the NESFA meeting it was voted on at. I got yelled at for saying that people were going to be pissed off by the tone when they read the letter.... (and I wouldn't be surprised if I got yelled at for bringing that up now. "I told you so" and dredging up ancient unpleasant history is not something people appreciate....)