A useful halachic note.
Apr. 8th, 2009 01:55 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
So, fellow Jews: have you ever sat there and thought, "Well, but HOW could I burn my chametz? It's not like bread and Chereos are actually all that inflammable."
I had a brainstorm.
190 proof grain alcohol is chametz.
Okay, there's a possibility that it's only kitnyot, if it's made from corn. But still.
Soak a piece of bread in grain alcohol.
Burns like a charm. If there was a problem, it was that I had to use about a quart of water after the thing was charcoal just to make CERTAIN it was out. . .
I had a brainstorm.
190 proof grain alcohol is chametz.
Okay, there's a possibility that it's only kitnyot, if it's made from corn. But still.
Soak a piece of bread in grain alcohol.
Burns like a charm. If there was a problem, it was that I had to use about a quart of water after the thing was charcoal just to make CERTAIN it was out. . .
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 05:59 pm (UTC)(Somehow I missed that particular bit of tradition)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 06:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 06:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 06:51 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 07:05 pm (UTC)Matzah is made from flour of wheat, oats, spelt, barley, or rye, mixed with water, and baked fast, such that the entire process, from the time the water hits the flour, to the time that the matzahs come out of the oven, is less than 18 minutes.
Chametz is anything made from wheat, oats, spelt, barley, or rye that isn't matzah.
So, we need to not consume, derive benefit from, or own anything made from those things.
Yet it would be a serious hardship to, for instance, not be able to own casks of whiskey which were aging. So you could sell them to a non-Jew, and then buy them back after Pesach. But it was a good idea to create a contract such that you'd be certain that you COULD buy them back after Pesach.
As long as these contracts were being written, other people could sign on, and so, as I have a good collection of whiskeys, and other chametz things that would be a hardship to throw out, I can sign on to one of these deals. For the duration of Pesach, I don't own those things. But I expect that their ownership is likely to revert back to me, after.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 07:26 pm (UTC)Don't you think that a higher power would fail to be hoodwinked by such a contract? It's obvious that it's simply a method to try and cheat the system ...
If this sort of action is considered acceptable to your passover obligations then I'd find it hard to not to just settle on "I'm treating these things like they don't exist until passover is finished". Your intent is the same.
Attempts to exploit a loophole religious belief seems pretty odd to me, considering it is supposed to be the law of God, not the local town ordinance.
Then there are things like the Shabbat elevator. If God didn't want you to push a elevator button, then I doubt making an elevator without buttons is a clever enough ruse to fool a omnipotent being.
Sorry, having very little exposure to Jewish beliefs I just view the whole thing with significant curiosity ...
Thanks for the information though. Time to go spend some time reading on ol' wikipedia :)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 07:40 pm (UTC)Halacha is real. Ownership is real. The law about not owning things during Pesach is real.
Therefore, REALLY not owning things, because you've sold them, with a REAL contract, with REAL money, makes a REAL difference.
The law against making and breaking is REAL. Making a circuit by pressing a button is REAL. It's a real action, and has a real consequence, because it's a real thing.
If these laws are real, in the sense that laws of physics are real, then they are things which we work with. They're not just things we think about, things in our heads, things of intention. They're that, too, of course, but they have actual, objective reality.
And the way that we deal with them is based on that objective reality of the rules.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 07:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 07:52 pm (UTC)We're not judged on what we INTEND to do. We're judged on what we DO. We can intend whatever we want. It's EASY to intend.
But DOING is hard.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 08:06 pm (UTC)It's like saying "ok, my belief says I can't consume alcohol now, but what if I mainline IV some into my system? I'm not consuming it in the sense of drinking it, but I can still get hammered"
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 08:31 pm (UTC)But the law says nothing about elevators. The law specifies not using buttons. It's just an accident of history that our elevators use buttons.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-09 03:20 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 08:08 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 08:13 pm (UTC)Hmm, I hadn't heard you couldn't derive benefit from it. How strict is that?
Because in a sense a deferred-payment contract of the type you describe could be considered to be holding derivatives on the chametz in question. You have, at least arguably, passed on ownership of the chametz, but you have a lien on it during pesach which is contracted to provide you either goods or money afterward. I'm not certain whether that should be valued as an active benefit during pesach or not.
On the other hand, you could just do a simple sale before pesach and buy the chametz back afterward. Or, if for whatever reason you want greater assurance of return, you could make a sale at a discount, the consideration for the discount being that within 10 days you have the option to buy the goods back at the full price. No derivative assets held during that week, a reasonable consideration for the contract, and ultimately a small payment to the buyer for their trouble. (Actually, that's kind of the same as the consideration, I would say.)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-09 03:21 pm (UTC)That's what he's doing.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-09 03:26 pm (UTC)Now, of course that's a matter of formality - but so's the whole thing. If it wasn't he'd just have a friend keep them with no pretense of a sale.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-09 04:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-09 04:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 06:26 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 06:35 pm (UTC)(Btw, you can't seem me laughing at this thought/action - espeically the quart of water. But my coworkers seem to think I've lost my mind).
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 06:39 pm (UTC)See, first, over the weeks ahead of time, you use up all the chametz you can.
Then you throw out what's not worth keeping.
Then, you sell the bits which are significant, by the method I mentioned to cbpotts above.
However, you hold back one or two small pieces which you symbolically burn. I mean, I'm not talking about burning a huge pile of things, just a piece of bread, or a graham cracker, or a couple Cheerios or whatever.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-09 05:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 06:36 pm (UTC)*regards you fondly*
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 06:40 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 06:43 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 07:33 pm (UTC)next time I vote making up some home-made napalm
that'll show people what's up :)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 07:42 pm (UTC)Possibly.
Because napalm is made with gelatin, which is, itself, treif. That may not be a problem, since it's not to be eaten. But it would seem, I dunno, a little emotionally weird. I don't think it would break any of the rules, though.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 08:09 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-08 08:31 pm (UTC)That might be taking it a little far though.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-09 03:46 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-04-19 07:49 pm (UTC)Still, I think you win points for creativity.