xiphias: (Default)
[personal profile] xiphias
So, fellow Jews: have you ever sat there and thought, "Well, but HOW could I burn my chametz? It's not like bread and Chereos are actually all that inflammable."

I had a brainstorm.

190 proof grain alcohol is chametz.

Okay, there's a possibility that it's only kitnyot, if it's made from corn. But still.

Soak a piece of bread in grain alcohol.

Burns like a charm. If there was a problem, it was that I had to use about a quart of water after the thing was charcoal just to make CERTAIN it was out. . .

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 05:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cbpotts.livejournal.com
Not sure if this violates Jewish law somehow, but shortening is also super duper flammable and cheaper than alcohol. Unless there's a law that you have to burn all the alcohol in your home during Passover?

(Somehow I missed that particular bit of tradition)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 06:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
No, no, alcohol is normally sold -- you write a contract to sell all your chametz to a non-Jew, for a small down-payment, with a much larger payment to come due after Pesach, with the understanding that, if that larger payment (several million dollars, usually) doesn't come through, the chametz will revert to the original owner. With the original payment, plus a bit for their help, refunded.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 06:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cbpotts.livejournal.com
Really? That is awesome, indeed.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 06:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dillonpuff.livejournal.com
what exactly is the purpose of this?

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 07:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
During Pesach, a Jew is not allowed to eat, derive benefit from, or own any chametz.

Matzah is made from flour of wheat, oats, spelt, barley, or rye, mixed with water, and baked fast, such that the entire process, from the time the water hits the flour, to the time that the matzahs come out of the oven, is less than 18 minutes.

Chametz is anything made from wheat, oats, spelt, barley, or rye that isn't matzah.

So, we need to not consume, derive benefit from, or own anything made from those things.

Yet it would be a serious hardship to, for instance, not be able to own casks of whiskey which were aging. So you could sell them to a non-Jew, and then buy them back after Pesach. But it was a good idea to create a contract such that you'd be certain that you COULD buy them back after Pesach.

As long as these contracts were being written, other people could sign on, and so, as I have a good collection of whiskeys, and other chametz things that would be a hardship to throw out, I can sign on to one of these deals. For the duration of Pesach, I don't own those things. But I expect that their ownership is likely to revert back to me, after.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 07:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dillonpuff.livejournal.com
Interesting.

Don't you think that a higher power would fail to be hoodwinked by such a contract? It's obvious that it's simply a method to try and cheat the system ...

If this sort of action is considered acceptable to your passover obligations then I'd find it hard to not to just settle on "I'm treating these things like they don't exist until passover is finished". Your intent is the same.

Attempts to exploit a loophole religious belief seems pretty odd to me, considering it is supposed to be the law of God, not the local town ordinance.

Then there are things like the Shabbat elevator. If God didn't want you to push a elevator button, then I doubt making an elevator without buttons is a clever enough ruse to fool a omnipotent being.

Sorry, having very little exposure to Jewish beliefs I just view the whole thing with significant curiosity ...

Thanks for the information though. Time to go spend some time reading on ol' wikipedia :)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 07:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
But your attitude assumes that laws aren't real.

Halacha is real. Ownership is real. The law about not owning things during Pesach is real.

Therefore, REALLY not owning things, because you've sold them, with a REAL contract, with REAL money, makes a REAL difference.

The law against making and breaking is REAL. Making a circuit by pressing a button is REAL. It's a real action, and has a real consequence, because it's a real thing.

If these laws are real, in the sense that laws of physics are real, then they are things which we work with. They're not just things we think about, things in our heads, things of intention. They're that, too, of course, but they have actual, objective reality.

And the way that we deal with them is based on that objective reality of the rules.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 07:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dillonpuff.livejournal.com
I guess I'm skeptical that God would favor law (as understood by man, a flawed being) vs. intent

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
Why? What does intent have to do with anything?

We're not judged on what we INTEND to do. We're judged on what we DO. We can intend whatever we want. It's EASY to intend.

But DOING is hard.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 08:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dillonpuff.livejournal.com
Things like the Shabbat elevator is clearly breaking the spirit of the law by using technology to circumvent the act of pressing a button while still gaining the end benefit of the convenience.

It's like saying "ok, my belief says I can't consume alcohol now, but what if I mainline IV some into my system? I'm not consuming it in the sense of drinking it, but I can still get hammered"

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 08:31 pm (UTC)
ext_87516: (torah)
From: [identity profile] 530nm330hz.livejournal.com
You're assuming that the spirit of the law is "do not use an elevator."

But the law says nothing about elevators. The law specifies not using buttons. It's just an accident of history that our elevators use buttons.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-09 03:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seventorches.livejournal.com
In fact, that's exactly the sort of thing halachically observant Jews are concerned with--the source of the old saw about "where there are two Jews, there are three opinions". There would definitely be a side arguing that this does constitute "consuming", and another side arguing what you suggest, that it doesn't. (I can't think of a third side, but I'm not Jewish.) :)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 08:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dillonpuff.livejournal.com
and I guess intent isn't the right way to say it. you're right, intention is easy, doing is hard.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 08:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] learnedax.livejournal.com
During Pesach, a Jew is not allowed to eat, derive benefit from, or own any chametz.

Hmm, I hadn't heard you couldn't derive benefit from it. How strict is that?
Because in a sense a deferred-payment contract of the type you describe could be considered to be holding derivatives on the chametz in question. You have, at least arguably, passed on ownership of the chametz, but you have a lien on it during pesach which is contracted to provide you either goods or money afterward. I'm not certain whether that should be valued as an active benefit during pesach or not.

On the other hand, you could just do a simple sale before pesach and buy the chametz back afterward. Or, if for whatever reason you want greater assurance of return, you could make a sale at a discount, the consideration for the discount being that within 10 days you have the option to buy the goods back at the full price. No derivative assets held during that week, a reasonable consideration for the contract, and ultimately a small payment to the buyer for their trouble. (Actually, that's kind of the same as the consideration, I would say.)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-09 03:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seventorches.livejournal.com
On the other hand, you could just do a simple sale before pesach and buy the chametz back afterward.

That's what he's doing.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-09 03:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] learnedax.livejournal.com
No, it's not. The sale described is more complex, in as much as the transaction is not on paper complete during passover.

Now, of course that's a matter of formality - but so's the whole thing. If it wasn't he'd just have a friend keep them with no pretense of a sale.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-09 04:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seventorches.livejournal.com
The whole point to the exercise is that it's a real sale. If his car were chametz, he'd be halachically required to hand over the title when he sold it to me for a buck.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-09 04:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
Maybe I described it poorly at the outset -- what you're describing in the second paragraph is exactly the contract that is written.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 06:26 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 06:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tendyl.livejournal.com
Do I want to ask WHY you decided to burn your chametz?

(Btw, you can't seem me laughing at this thought/action - espeically the quart of water. But my coworkers seem to think I've lost my mind).

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 06:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
Oh! Because them's the rules.

See, first, over the weeks ahead of time, you use up all the chametz you can.

Then you throw out what's not worth keeping.

Then, you sell the bits which are significant, by the method I mentioned to cbpotts above.

However, you hold back one or two small pieces which you symbolically burn. I mean, I'm not talking about burning a huge pile of things, just a piece of bread, or a graham cracker, or a couple Cheerios or whatever.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-09 05:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tendyl.livejournal.com
Ah ha! Understanding has been achieved!

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 06:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] browngirl.livejournal.com
Firebug.

*regards you fondly*

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 06:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
But it's the rules. Gnomi and Mabfan burned more stuff than I did. I just burned it better.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 06:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] browngirl.livejournal.com
Do I sound like I disapprove? I just wish I'd gotten to see this!

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 07:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dillonpuff.livejournal.com
heh

next time I vote making up some home-made napalm

that'll show people what's up :)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 07:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] xiphias.livejournal.com
What's cool about my method is that everything I'm burning is chametz. That's not a requirement -- you are allowed to burn things other than chametz, so the napalm method is useful.

Possibly.

Because napalm is made with gelatin, which is, itself, treif. That may not be a problem, since it's not to be eaten. But it would seem, I dunno, a little emotionally weird. I don't think it would break any of the rules, though.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 08:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dillonpuff.livejournal.com
well, I admit ... the aspect of it being chametz as well is pretty clever in my book :)


(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-08 08:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paper-crystals.livejournal.com
That is a great idea. You could make rocket fuel the night before and have a rocket fuel party in a field and then the next morning burn all the chametz with the leftovers.

That might be taking it a little far though.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-09 03:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hfcougar.livejournal.com
Flaming Cheerios, OMG.

(no subject)

Date: 2009-04-19 07:49 pm (UTC)
goljerp: Photo of the moon Callisto (Default)
From: [personal profile] goljerp
Actually, cheerioes burn pretty well. Of course, I burned mine in a communal fire, and made sure to have lots of candle wax and matchsticks in the paper bag I brought the cheerios in, so I probably could've burned bread pretty easily, too. :-)

Still, I think you win points for creativity.

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